[Joe Fults]

[Angus Trim]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Chuck Perino]

Just thought I'd show an example of an atrim dagger (and rapier) I own (bought from Phoenix metal Creations about 3 years ago).

I don't believe Phoenix Metal Creations is doing any more customization of Atrim blade. Unfortunate, because I love mine!

[Cliff Poe]

Hi all...new to the site and was directed to this post from swordarts.

I own several Angel Swords, including one of the $10,000 Avatars. Here is a link to some pics of my collection.

http://www.crpoe.com/angel_swords.htm

I use my swords. I take them off the wall all the time and cut with them. I've cut everything from tree saplings to a german curaiss I purchased from Museum Replicas. I have yet to damage any of my swords in anyway. I have not chipped a blade, bent a blade or dulled a blade that I can tell. I have broken some of hilt wrappings and each time, Angel has repaired my sword with no questions asked.

Now I'm not a sword expert. I only own Angel Swords. As I have never owned any other swords other than Angel Swords, I can't speak intelligently about other swords. All I can tell you is that every sword I've ever purchased from Angel Sword has performed far beyond any of my wildest expectations and thusfar has cut thru every substance I've tried to cut. My armor will never be the same thanks to the slice in the front of it caused by Too Beast.

In my opinion, you could not spend your money on a better sword nor could you deal with nicer people, more knowledgable people or a better craftsman than Daniel Watson.

I hope that helps you some.

Cliff

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Cliff,

As I mentioned previously in this thread, much of the debate here centers around the notion of maximal efficiency -- that is, the ability of swords to perform as combative weapons. Cutting alone is not a sufficient gauge of maximal efficiency, so the statements you make don't help to advance this discussion. Further, given your admitted lack of a frame of reference either for other swords or for swordsmanship technique, speaking in superlatives only makes a rapprochement more difficult.

Please, let's try to re-orient this discussion towards finding some neutral criteria for qualitative evaluation. Unreferenced testimonials won't help with that. In truth, I agree with Chad's assessment that all's well if both sides can simply accept that their respective a priori assumptions are both mutually exclusive yet not necessarily judgmental about each other.

Curb your enthusiasm, my friend. Believe me, you'll need it for when I catch you out at Scarborough and and turn my fashion criticism on you...

[Jean Thibodeau]

Cliff;

First welcome to the site and thanks for the Picts as I am not familiar with Angel swords and it's good to see what everyone is talking about.

I think the subject can be split into physical properties: Handling, durability, construction.
Historically based versus fantasy designs.
Personal taste, aesthetics.

Depending on what one is interested in a sword can be a good example or a poor example of any of the above.

Personally, I like some things like the filework or twisting of guards and some of the blade shapes as long as I judge them with fantasy criteria. If your use of them has cause minimal wear and damage then materials and construction seem good or even surprisingly superior. One sword blade looks like Damascus steel in the Pict and looks very nice to me.

In any case looks like a very interesting collection and I like the way you have them displayed.

[Joe Fults]

Cliff,

Its obvious that you've put a great deal of thought into your collection, and its very nice. I think I may have seen, but not handled, one of the swords in your collection some years back at the Atlanta blade show. Memory is not that good, but one defintely looks very familiar. All are probably completely out of my price range, but then again lots of things are.

Do you keep them insured?

That seems like quite a bit of money hanging on the walls. My homeowners insurance is fairly light on collectable coverage. Do you take something supplemental out? I don't have enough in my collection to worry about now, but we expereinced a break in some years back at a different residence. We didn't lose anything irreplacable, but nothing was one of a kind either.

What do you mean when you say you break the hilt wrappings?

I don't see anything in your collection that appears to have a covering on the hilt/handle other than on the big one that looks like an axe or staff. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems very substantial and appears to have a cloth or leather wrap. Do you mean that you are breaking the wood and/or horn on the handles? I can't tell what all of the hilts are made of in some of the picture. Most appear to be exotic woods but I'm not sure, especially in the case of the very red one. Is it horn, coral, or some kind of wood?

Are the things on the tops of the smaller axes pineapples? From the photos I can't tell. I tried enlarging them, but I still can't tell what they are and they look like pineapples to me.

[Cliff Poe]

[Cliff Poe]

[Cliff Poe]

[Chad Arnow]

[Drake Abram]

Chad,

In a general sense I agree with what you have said. However, I believe that all Angels are designed to cut. I've even heard of people using rapiers to slice through some targets (tatami mat I believe). So, if you are encouraged to cut with an AS sword, would it be safe to then say that cutting would be a factor of efficiency with AS blades?

I do agree that most (European) AS pieces are very ahistorical, but I have seen some that they could be historical, like these pieces:

[Chad Arnow]

[Drake Abram]

Chad,

Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that cutting is not the only factor, but I do believe it is a good way to test the endurance of the blade and the user.

I'll go ahead and clarify what I meant and say that I didn't intended to say those AS piece are 100% historical, but have historically inspired elements.

I also agree with what you say about purchasing a weapon. Some people want performance, some looks, some authenticity, and some just want what the can afford, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Glen A Cleeton]

I believe Daniel himself has said that his swords are no more than historically inspired. He (as many makers/smiths have) had evolved over time. He is probably quite capable of designing and crafting an authentic reproduction of truly historic parameters.

A niche is just that. Just as someone that has only owned Windlass or Generation 2 products may swear by them and call them the best; What does that really say?

It's really useless to make comparative and subjective statement if the scope of focus is narrowed in experience or knowledge.

Price justification? Whatever. I'd call it all free enterprise.

Cheers

GC

[Jean Thibodeau]

Looking at the blades I see some interesting if not historically based cross sections and fullers that are visually intriguing.

Multiple fullers that do look very modern machine made which is fine for fantasy pieces.

Some cross sections do not seem to me the best for effective cutting: As an example one blade looks like it has very steep but hollow ground primary bevels as well as deep narrow fullers on a basically hexagonal cross section: Very striking aesthetically but " maybe " not an improvement in blade profile for optimized cutting efficiency.

But then the proof of this in the positive or the negative would be in the cutting !

This blade does look robust thought and it's cross section should give a very durable edge.

One point Cliff made is that after some use in cutting the wear and tear to the blade edges seem to him less than what one might expect or at least are not damaged. So assuming that the perceived or stated, by the maker, superior steel and or heat threat is accurate one could judge the cutting based on blade design and judge the blade material as to resistance to damage and edge retention, i.e. can Angel Swords survive more abuse than other brands with less damage or wear ?

Not making any judgement about this myself: Just trying to isolate the features that either make these swords special or not.
The questions we should ask maybe ? Not the answers. ( At least from me. )

[Chad Arnow]

We're to the point in this thread where most people have weighed in who care to. Little new information is being presented. By and large, there have been no major blow-ups as in past threads of this nature. For that, I thank everyone. Some posts have evolved into a discussion more about what criteria people use to make purchases: a fascinating topic that deserves its own thread. If people want to discuss that in more depth, a new topic here in the Off-Topic forum would be a great venue to hear people's thoughts on that.

Getting back to Trace's original question, here's a summary of what we've learned:

Toughness of Angelsword products:
No one in this thread (supporters or otherwise) has really disputed their toughness or durability. I've heard exactly one report of failure of an AS in my years on the net, and that was years ago. By all reports, they are tough and durable.

Historical Accuracy:
No one in this thread (supporters or otherwise) really believes they are historically accurate. That's fine. Not everything has to be. We don't all share the same needs and should respect that others' need are different. Vive le difference.

Price and value:
Some think they are over-priced, others don't. Value is in the eye of the consumer. The bottom line is that they do sell at their prices to happy and very loyal customers. There's also a significant number of people who think they are over-priced. What does this mean? In a word: nothing. We all have our definition of value and our own budgets. We all have to decide whether AS products are worth the price. If someone decides they are, that doesn't make them wrong. If someone decides they aren't, they're not wrong either. See butchered French phrase above.

Marketing:
Some people have been turned off by Angelsword's marketing. In fairness, I think a lot of this is based on some of AS's old marketing strategies, in which some very very bold claims were made. They seem to have backed off of a lot of the ideas that turned people off. Their sales force has also been told to turn things down a notch. The gentleman at the AS booth in Atlanta last year was pushier than I prefer, but was not like some stories I have heard in years past. In short, I think their marketing materials have swung back toward mainstream recently and their sales force is supposed to be toning it down. As with any marketing and sales pitches each of us has to decide whether we're hearing hype or facts and whether the info being presented is of value.

User/Reader opinions:
Those who own AS products tend to rave about them. For many people, though, AS products don't meet their needs so they don't purchase them and evaluate them.

Basically, we will never all agree on Angelsword products (or any other brand for that matter), and that's okay. Quality, value, accuracy, effectiveness of marketing, etc. are all highly subjective. Not many people involved in this thread have been swayed to change their minds from whatever position they initially held. Rather than continuing to flagellate a deceased equine, I'd love to move on to other topics of discussion if there is nothing new to present.

[Nathan Robinson]