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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Two novels too good to miss Reply to topic
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 3:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Barris wrote:
FWIW, I'm really looking forward to The Mongoliad. That seems right up our collective alley. Big Grin


Bingo! Anathem was worthwhile, despite possibly being one third as long extra as it needed to be, but Stephenson is a genius ... and WMA practitioner to boot. Bring it on!

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Tod Glenn




Location: Helena MT
Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: Two novels too good to miss         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
DIES THE FIRE & the sequel THE PROTECTOR'S WAR by S.M. Sterling


It's almost as if these novels were written with our interests and fantasies in mind: What would we do if tomorrow our ancient weapons skills made the different between death or survival.


They were.

I really wanted to like these books, but I found it really hard to suspend disbelief. If you aren't of a scientific bent and won't follow the implications of the change to their logical end, you will probably be able to enjoy these.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Jean, putting these books on my list.

There's a similar but more pop culture and dragons and stuff, "There will be Dragons" by John Ringo.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Ben P.




Location: Mountainous Terrain
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to agree with the people who didn't like the books, Stirling is an irritating and mediocre author and he really, really needs to get over himself.

I don't give a d*mn what he thinks about christians and the part where the SCA guy beats two trained soldiers* and how America died was just stupid. And Stirling's bizzare S&M Lesbian fetish is just disgusting, but get this: From what I've seen and heard, he doesn't think very much of gay men.

* We were discussing this topic on another site and a guy who'd served in the US Army said that he and his buddies would have torn right through the SCA guys, especially if the SCA guys had been between them and food Wink

It also annoyed me how, people went: "Oh no, OMG, the lights are gone, let's all adopt fuedalism."
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David Clark





Joined: 10 Feb 2009

Posts: 132

PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben P. wrote:
I have to agree with the people who didn't like the books, Stirling is an irritating and mediocre author and he really, really needs to get over himself.

I don't give a d*mn what he thinks about christians and the part where the SCA guy beats two trained soldiers* and how America died was just stupid. And Stirling's bizzare S&M Lesbian fetish is just disgusting, but get this: From what I've seen and heard, he doesn't think very much of gay men.

* We were discussing this topic on another site and a guy who'd served in the US Army said that he and his buddies would have torn right through the SCA guys, especially if the SCA guys had been between them and food Wink

It also annoyed me how, people went: "Oh no, OMG, the lights are gone, let's all adopt fuedalism."


A key point of that scene is that Norman (the villain) has full armour, a real sword and shield, and is in good shape. Whereas the two soldiers only have old machetes and no armour. It makes the point that they do strike him, but his armour stops any damage.

But I do agree, the writing and a lot of the concepts Stirling brings about are funky/annoying. However, it is a fun idea to contemplate...much like a zombie invasion.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'm wishing Patrick saved me from myself earlier ... I'm 200 pages into the first book in the second trilogy, with barely the beginning of a plot, and we're back to the Bobsey-twins-speaking-'Elvish'-in-the-forest again ... (what was that about time that can never be got back?).

I think we need a *sigh* emoticon ...

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Clark wrote:


A key point of that scene is that Norman (the villain) has full armour, a real sword and shield, and is in good shape. Whereas the two soldiers only have old machetes and no armour. It makes the point that they do strike him, but his armour stops any damage.

But I do agree, the writing and a lot of the concepts Stirling brings about are funky/annoying. However, it is a fun idea to contemplate...much like a zombie invasion.


I wouldn't make a big deal about SCA sword skills or lack of skills in the contexts of a real fight, but the point was that in the context of the book the Villain did have a high level of skill ( Who knows a lot of people who do SCA have also trained or later trained and studied HEMA ).

The author may have done some research, but maybe only superficial research, and not made the distinctions we would make about what is good sword training versus a sword game or sport ? ( SCA is also better known by the public I think ).

As far as modern " Elite " soldiers winning against a high level skilled swordsman, who not only has theoretical knowledge, but has already fought numerous real sword fights, is also a really " Bad Sadistic Character " and experienced in killing people with a sword: I also assume that the soldiers, even if highly skilled with " modern weapons " they would be complete neophytes swordsmen. (The soldiers might well be O.K. in very close combat with a knife but zero training with a sword).

And the point of the advantage of shield and armour being an important factor.[/i]

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Well, I'm wishing Patrick saved me from myself earlier ... I'm 200 pages into the first book in the second trilogy, with barely the beginning of a plot, and we're back to the Bobsey-twins-speaking-'Elvish'-in-the-forest again ... (what was that about time that can never be got back?).

I think we need a *sigh* emoticon ...


But now you know that you don't like this writer and are now SAFE from ever buying another of his books. Razz Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ben P.




Location: Mountainous Terrain
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Clark wrote:


A key point of that scene is that Norman (the villain) has full armour, a real sword and shield, and is in good shape. Whereas the two soldiers only have old machetes and no armour. It makes the point that they do strike him, but his armour stops any damage.



IIRC the soldiers were in good shape too (and he was much older) and he was only wearing a hauberk, two trained soldiers should have been more than enough to kill his delusional a**, armour or no armour.


Jean Thibodeau wrote:


I wouldn't make a big deal about SCA sword skills or lack of skills in the contexts of a real fight, but the point was that in the context of the book the Villain did have a high level of skill ( Who knows a lot of people who do SCA have also trained or later trained and studied HEMA ).


But as I remember the villain had never studied HEMA.

Quote:
As far as modern " Elite " soldiers winning against a high level skilled swordsman, who not only has theoretical knowledge, but has already fought numerous real sword fights, is also a really " Bad Sadistic Character " and experienced in killing people with a sword: I also assume that the soldiers, even if highly skilled with " modern weapons " they would be complete neophytes swordsmen. ( [i ]The soldiers might well be O.K. in very close combat with a knife but zero training with a sword [/i] ) .


Had the villain ever been in a sword fight before that? And they were both armed.
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Trying to analize the devices and conventions the author uses to move the story along is pretty pointles. You guys are starting to sound like Sci-fi geeks. "My fourth edition technical manual (with collectors edition hologram slip cover) cleary states the USS Pocket Protector gets its warp power from a plasma boosted flux capacitor in the 50,000 jigawatt range. Therefore there's no way Captain Awesome Hairdo and his crew could have outmanuvered the attacking poopy head class frigate in season two, episode twelve, scene eight. It's just not cannon."
Laughing Out Loud

The only accurate thing I see in books like these is the value of community being emphasized. If our world were to truly breakdown as some of these fantasies portray, the only way to survive would be to pool your availble resources and abilities. The lone wolf road warrior type wouldn't stand a chance.

If you like alternate reality/fantasy type pulp then I'd recommend Robert Adams work, The Horseclans, etc. I read the first Horseclans book when I was bed ridden with pnuemonia as a child. He kept using very specific terms to describe bits of arms and armor and it actually gave me the motivation to educate myself, just so I could understand the terminology he was using.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Trying to analize the devices and conventions the author uses to move the story along is pretty pointles. You guys are starting to sound like Sci-fi geeks. "My fourth edition technical manual (with collectors edition hologram slip cover) cleary states the USS Pocket Protector gets its warp power from a plasma boosted flux capacitor in the 50,000 jigawatt range. Therefore there's no way Captain Awesome Hairdo and his crew could have outmanuvered the attacking poopy head class frigate in season two, episode twelve, scene eight. It's just not cannon."
Laughing Out Loud



OUCH, it burns ...... touché. ( Oh, no my warp core is overloading ............ BOOOOOOOOM. Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not that I've ever been guilty of such myself...........not me. Wink Razz
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Lou Weaver




Location: amelia island, florida
Joined: 04 Sep 2008

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Stirling's books         Reply with quote

Kaor!
The only books I have read are the Draka and Lords of Creation series with a few chapters from the Peshawar Lancers.You know that a writer can lapse and not all their works are equal to each other, Burroughs should have skipped some of his and concentrated on his core series instead.
Personaly I like science fiction but only the serious and mature kind. I have a good grounding in several areas of science and my eight years in the U. S. Army as an infantryman gives me a reasonable perspective on what I read within those subjects.
A lot of SF in the movies and television is nothing but mindless fantasy dramatic opera in my opinion, churned out by the entertainment media culture to the masses. I guess the best we can hope for are good writers that can maintain some level of integrity in their work and I admit being rather picky in what I like.

R.E. Howard ,Keneth Bulmer ( Dray prescot ) H.beam Piper , Tolkien , Frank Herbert , Larry Niven ,Brian Daley ( Coromonde series was interesting) , Moorcock , Lin Carter, H. G. Wells, Sprague DeCamp, Anne McCaffrey ( yes, her abuse of science is legendary but she had some entertaining work) John Norman ( his early Gor books were good) and several others.

'...you know best the promptings of yor own heart. that i shall need your sword i have little doubt, but accept from john carter upon his sacred honor the assurance that he will never call upon you to draw this sword other than in the cause of truth, justice and righteousness.'
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Joel N





Joined: 21 Feb 2012

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Someone mentioned that they like sci-fiabout sending modern folks back in history, who actually know how to do stuff. To you I recommend the 1632 series (also known as The Ring of Fire). It's about modern Americans who get thrown back into the middle of Germany during the 30 Years War, and decide to make a new American republic in the middle of Europe, 150 years ahead of schedule. Some of the authors in the series are better than others, but most of them I found pretty entertaining. I think you can find the first two books free online (to get you hooked enough to find or buy the others).
I read the Dies the Fire series. A lot of it was pretty silly. Some of it was pretty interesting. The books did get progressively worse, though. The tone changed quite a bit after the third book, with a new protagonist and everything. Regarding religion, it was interesting that the author chose to have the Catholics and the Mormons survive rather than the Evangelicals. I always wondered if that was simply a comment on how well organized the author thinks the former two religious communities are versus the latter. (I'm always flattered when in post-apocalyptic fiction people assume that all Mormons are hoarding food and supplies. We are supposed to, but not all of us do it very well. And it's more for the personal hard times like losing a job than it is for preparing for the end of the world.) But then Wicca becomes a major world religion through quite a series of coincidences, and the Tolkienesque stuff was pretty over the top for me at least, even with the idea that society is rebuilt on earlier models of government.
I tried the Draka series, but didn't make it very far into the first novel. It just didn't grab me like I thought it might.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
All of us medieval wannabes get to live out our fantasies in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario? Done to death.


Patrick, I forgot to pick up on this ... I've read a fair few post-apocalyptic novels, but not many that go in this direction ... any suggestions (other than Horseclans)?

Cheers!
Mark T

I just need to believe there's more to life after Stirling ... Wink

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
All of us medieval wannabes get to live out our fantasies in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario? Done to death.


Patrick, I forgot to pick up on this ... I've read a fair few post-apocalyptic novels, but not many that go in this direction ... any suggestions (other than Horseclans)?

Cheers!
Mark T

I just need to believe there's more to life after Stirling ... Wink


I was thinking of several when I typed that, now I can't seem to recall another!

It seems in sci-fi literature the post- apocalyptic thing has been as done and done as the time travel plot device has been in sci-fi television.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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