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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Apr, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
The position of the thumb is also much less critical to execution of some of these German style moves when sword grip length is increased to 8" or longer (which I like to believe actually was something of a trend for duelng style swords...i.e. the Albion Munich..... between 1300 to 1500 A.D..) It largely has to do with leverage or the torque/ moment between positions of the two hands that goes up dramatically with just a couple of extra inches in that grip length.


Hmmm... I'm not so sure. The thumb isn't so much about added leverage, it's about supporting the sword in a different grip. The sword has to rotate in your hands to perform a zwerchau, schielhau or krumphau, and with the thumb, that grip is less sturdy because the sword's impact no longer lines up with the wrist and forearm. The thumb contrrols the sword much better in these positions.

*shrug* Or maybe it's because I've been doing it that way so long now that it feels funny any other way. Happy Regardless, I don't find the length of the grip to make any difference in comfort if I don't use the thumb: I need to use it no matter what for these strikes in order to have any serious control.

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is definately some preferrence involved with "the thumb thing."

I look at it this way... If your alignment and speed is good enough to shave water bottles down in successive sections without the thumb grip, and the thumb grip is uncomfortable with gloves or gauntlets, don't do it. Personally, the thumb grip causes pain in my thumb with a longer grip sword.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe certain kinds of pommels can make up for a "missing thumb". A wheel pommel on a XVIIIb (like the Munich) could help in correct edge alignment. Wheel pommels (assuming that you're gripping the pommel) make it easier to "feel" at which angle the edge is. On the other hand, I've never handled a longsword with such a long grip so I can't say whether gripping the pommel is practical or not.
Sorry for the crappy English but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Wink

However, If you can perform the master strikes correctly without this particular technique, why bother Happy
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wheel pommel shouldn't really help/hinder anything with the thumb grip. With certain strikes (the zwerchau, for instance) you can't do the strike effectively without rotating your dominant hand's grip. The thumb is applied to the blade to put your hand in a better supportive position, not necessarily for blade alignment (though it does certainly help with the latter).

Oh, and your English is excellent, don't apologize!

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some longswords with complex hilts seem to adress the thumb-problem by simply adding either only one sidering or by putting the siderings further up the ricasso with a special construction as seen on the blade below.

Longsword from the mid 16th century: http://asp.thetisweb.com/czernysasp/scheda.as...amp;ris=30

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Wolfgang,
Maybe I'm looking at the picture wrong, but that looks more or less like a typical AVB Norman hilt type 41 with a swept bar around the back side. I don't think that's a thumb ring, just a bar for extra protection in case an incoming sword slides down.

Having the ring further up is common on sideswords, too, so I don't think it's so much an issue of adapting to the thumb grip. Plus I'm not sure how changing the rings really changes the grip, as the only part of the sword that can get in the way would be the thumb ring.

HistoricalHandcrafts.com
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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, you're looking at the picture correctly Happy
There's no thumb-ring, only a side-ring and something that looks like a guard for the index-finger on the other side.
From my point of view that's already a complex hilt (at least compared to a standard cruxiform-crossguard).
So you would say that having sidedrings attached to the cross-guard on both sides wouldn't cause problems when placing the thumb on the flat? I'm just curious since I've never handled any kind of complex-hilted sword. Idea

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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
No, you're looking at the picture correctly Happy
There's no thumb-ring, only a side-ring and something that looks like a guard for the index-finger on the other side.
From my point of view that's already a complex hilt (at least compared to a standard cruxiform-crossguard).
So you would say that having sidedrings attached to the cross-guard on both sides wouldn't cause problems when placing the thumb on the flat? I'm just curious since I've never handled any kind of complex-hilted sword. Idea

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Depends on the size of those side-rings.

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Josh Brown




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
There's a 15th century Italian painting of St. George. He seems to be wrapping his thumb and index finger around the crossguard and ricasso. Maybe my eyes are just playing tricks on me.


Actually, that looks more like the index finger controlling the ricasso while the thumb rests along the quillon block - a style of grip which certainly seemed to become the norm for civillian swordplay through the late renaissance.

An example from Achille Marozzo's Opera Nova (printed 1536): http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p035.jpg

Of course, that's neither here nor there in terms of German longsword plays, my knowledge of which is limited, but I would have to imagine that it would give a significant control and leverage advantage for some of the maneuvers I've seen depicted.
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Sat 29 Apr, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh Brown wrote:
Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
There's a 15th century Italian painting of St. George. He seems to be wrapping his thumb and index finger around the crossguard and ricasso. Maybe my eyes are just playing tricks on me.


Actually, that looks more like the index finger controlling the ricasso while the thumb rests along the quillon block - a style of grip which certainly seemed to become the norm for civillian swordplay through the late renaissance.

An example from Achille Marozzo's Opera Nova (printed 1536): http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p035.jpg


That's exactly what I meant. But I was lacking the vocabulary to describe it properly Big Grin
Thx! Happy



Quote:
Depends on the size of those side-rings.

I'm getting the same impression. On some swords these are pretty small and thick which causes problems.
However, if you make 'em bigger you'll get less protection. That's probably why some swords have another pair of rings on the ricasso, like on these babies.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Apr, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying earlier. I understand now.

If you loop your fingers over the cross guard you can't do certain cuts easily, such as the zwerchau, but it allows certain cuts to have a little more control.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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