[Michal Plezia]

Heloo!
I've browsed the forum and there was not much info about arming doublets...maybe my search method was wrong.I would appreciate every help.

1.I post a picture of arming doublet(mid to late XV century).In the publication "Medieval soldier" was very similar doublet.It was said that it is made of a few layers of linen.BUT in "arms & Armour of medieval knight" by D.Edge & J.Paddock on page 115 it is said arming doublet can be padded with tow,wool or some other similar stuffing.

So I have a question what do you think about it?What are doublets You use and think are the best? Is it posiible to pad it with fleece???I've heard that in 14 century padded pourpoins(jupon) was filled with fleece.Am I right?

2.In the picture we can see that collar is very small with a space where people have throath...so how was the mail collar added to it????

3.I have a question about mid 15 century jack(like in the picture)-it is good protection-it is made of many layers of linen...but when somebody want to use mail outside it seems to be to heavy and not nessesary to use jack-and on the other hand arming doublet seems to be too thin and short for mail.So my question is-are there any 'jack-like' jupons that was filled with fleece to be used UNDER mail in mid 15???Any pictures of oryginal/reconstructions?What do You use?



To sum up: what should I use to fill inside of arming doublet and mid 15 jupon???

[Folkert van Wijk]

I should say: Horse hair, or maybe verry loos wool vilt.....

but I am sertenly no expert...

Folkert

[George Doby]

remember reading somewhere that histoicaly they and arming caps were stuffed w/ horsehair. something bout horse hair gave better padding than anything else. springy more?

[Wolfgang Armbruster]

In another thread ( http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6493 ) someone posted a link to a fencing doublet that was strengthend with either wood or bone splints.

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/FencingDoublet1.jpg

[Gordon Clark]

The two modern pictures above look more like jacks than arming doublets. To me, an arming doublet is a close fitting garmet usually made of multiple layers of linen (5-10 maybe?), but not really a fabric defense. It is used to connect and support armour. A jack is many more layers of linen - up to 30 or so, and is used as a defense itself, sometimes in conjunction with maile.

Some of (both of) these might have been "stuffed", but I believe most were just multiple layers of fabric, quilted together.

Gordon

[Gordon Clark]

The guy laying down is in a jack (over maile) made of multiple layers of linen. The other one has an arming doublet of a few layers of linen, with maile sleves sewn on. You can see the points where his armour will be attached at the shoulder. You can also see that the arming doublet holds up his hosen. The jack, on the other hand, does not support, but is in place of armour.

More pics at www.lordgreys.org.

[Jessica Finley]

[Alexi Goranov]

I know of historical account of a "doublet of fence" (arming doublet it appears) of over 20 layers of linen (23 layers I think is the actual number). I do not know how they made it, but that it was done:)

The arming doublets (also called jacks by some) , as Gordon mentions, are usually made of folds of linen quilted together. The stuffed garments are usually, but maybe not always, called gambesons or aketons, and indeed the first picture in the first post looks like a late form of a gambeson or aketon. These were usually stuffed with wool, rags, cotton, or hemp..pretty much anything. Wool and hemp seemed to have been preferred by some as they don't not get soaked in liquids as much as cotton does.

Alexi

[Michal Plezia]

[Gordon Clark]

[Michal Plezia]

[Jessica Finley]

Alright.

I couldn't stand not knowing, so I ran up to my sewing room and grabbed some linen.

I stitched it down using a running stitch and linen thread (there is NO WAY cotton thread could be strong enough for this application).

One thing, it's very tedious, which is what I expected. The article you mentioned, Gordon, indicates not to use a stabbing motion while stitching (which is a very slow and inexact way to stitch) but with this many layers of cloth, there is no other option that I know of. You may be able to use a leather/canvas stitching awl to get a stronger stitch, but I think you'd run into problems with the size of the awl. I can't see any way to do a backstitch with this many layers.

I will say that the 3.2 oz linen is reasonable to bend (for instance, bending an elbow, or at the waist depending on the tightness of the doublet), however, the 6.0 is so difficult and bulky that I can't imagine that thickness being at any bending area. But, though it's difficult to see in the pictures, the 6.0 gives alot more spring (cushion?), while the 3.2 is much more compact due to the tightness of the weave and the delicacy of the threads.

I can't imagine it being this thick around the shoulders and elbows, simply due to mobility, chafing, etc. I'd imagine it's part of the reason that you see the huge armholes, rather than them actually being at the shoulder joint.

But - I'd like to hear from you guys who've worn more gambesons and armor than myself, do you think that it'd be reasonable to have between 1/2" and 1" of padding underneath your armor? Or is it more reasonable in other applications?

Jess

[Gordon Clark]

[Michal Plezia]

[Gordon Clark]

From the evidence I have read, any of those are credible. I would go with 2 or more layers with no or very little padding.

An interesting article:

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm

[Alexi Goranov]

[W. R. Reynolds]

Michal,

IMHO the arming doublet only has to be thick enough to prevent your armour from chafing you and that is not very thick. As Gordon pointed out the garment in the top photo is clearly a jack and is armour unto itself, is thick enough to withstand incoming blows and can be worn in conjunction with other pieces of armour. The next photo could be an arming doublet of some kind but I do not see any points for the armour to be attached and I am not altogether convinced that huge puffy shoulders are needed to support pauldrons, I think they would have a tendency to push the pauldrons out of position. The most common stuffing for jacks was the many layers of linen but there are a few records of tow, horse hair and wool being used. I have two helmet liners, both linen on the outside, one stuffed with tow and the other with the layered linen. While not as thick as a jack I can see the potential for either stuffing to work as armour, though if the outer layer on the tow stuffed jack were to be sliced open in battle you might lose some of that protection in spite of the quilting.

An arming doublet should not be too thick as it will impair your ability to move which is vital if you are to survive in battle. Mine is an early model custom made by Historic and not one of their generic models that is now being sold on their website (nothing wrong with generic, Jeff is a friend and I happen to live a couple of miles from their shop). It is tight at the hips and waist to support the weight of the leg armour and loose (sort of bloused) above the navel to allow freedom of movement for the arms and shoulders. The area at the throat is closed using a point so that when you attach the pauldrons their weight will not pull the doublet and the armour on top of it out of position. My mail standard is separate from the doublet and covers the opening at the throat or you can wear a bevor or both. Mail voiders could either be pointed on or sewn on.

Hope this helps.

[W. R. Reynolds]

Michal,

Tight at the waist to support the legs and loose at the top (no I,m not really that fat, that is the blousing I talked about in my previous post) voiders sewn on. Probably shoud not be wearing the chaperone with this but I need the shade having had several skin cancers cut off my face.

[Michal Plezia]

[James Barker]