[Kenton Spaulding]

I've got a question concerning how tightly a scabbard should hold a sword. I'm making a wood core for my Gaddhjalt, and am, at least, near competing it. It may be complete now, but I'm not sure. I've never seen or played with (I mean studied ) a quality scabbard, so I'm honestly not sure how tight is tight. I know that people talk about holding their scabbards nearly upsidedown and the sword not falling out. I can hold mine literally upside down and the sword ain't goin anywhere. To remove it, though, it only takes a fairly light jerk. It feels like only about the first inch or two is what is holding it, so once that is freed it will slide right out. Does this sound too tight, or does it sound about right? Anybody who has made or played...umm studied, a nice scabbard I would appreciate your input.

Thanks,

Kenton

P.S. I've edited the title to be more encompassing.

[Kenton Spaulding]

Update: I decided to just work the core with sandpaper and trim it down a wee bit. I think that after this modifacation it is now ready. Fit is snug, when upsidedown it slowly creeps out for about 1 inch, and then will fall. I think that this is probibly about right.

Now, next question...what is the best treatment for the wood? It is made of poplar.

Again, I appreciate any suggestions

Kenton

[Chad Arnow]

On my good-fitting scabbards, they can be turned upside down without the sword falling out. A little jerk, though, and they slide out easily. That seems to be standard among good scabbard makers.

For treating the wood, some people seal it with something like polyurethane. Others use boiled linseed oil. Others probably do nothing at all. Some period scabbards were over-wrapped with linen cord or something, too.

Scabbards are an under-studied field, I think. I'd love to see some high-quality research done on the subject. Unfortunately, so few scabbards survive that it's hard to know how it was done back in the day. The ones that do survive likely won't be dissected to get a peak at what's inside.

[Kenton Spaulding]

Here are a few pics of what I've gotten done so far...

[Kenton Spaulding]

New pictures of the finished core. It may still be a bit thick. I didn't think so when I was making it, but upon seeing a picture of it, it looks bulkier than some of the cores I have seen here. Still, I'm very happy with how it came out, being my first try. The leather work though.....

[Chad Arnow]

I'm far from an expert, but it does look a bit bulky in that last shot. You've probably seen these before, but here are pics of the core of my Sovereign Scabbard (core by Aaron S.). The first shot is the bulkier of the two. The second has been worked down further.

[Kenton Spaulding]

Chad,

I had seen the first pic, I'm not sure about the second. That certainly is thin. What I did was trace the cross guard and thinned it to the same width as the cross. I got the idea looking through Aaron's photo album of his Knight scabbard. I might thin it out some more with sandpaper, but I don't think I'm going back to the desktop sander. Right now the walls are approx 3/16 of an inch. What do you think would be an appropriate thickness?

Kenton

[Jared Smith]

As you make the walls thinner, the wood will be more likely to take a set if the sword is stored in the scabbard. This means the fit will loosen over time. I would estimate that ones I made which initially took 10 lbs of force or so to draw, decayed to a point where it only took 5 lbs of force after a couple of months. When you glue it, avoid clamping on the center as this will deform the wood inward and actually result in a pinched centerline fit. I find it best to stack paint cans over the slats when gluing up the type of assembly you have shown. You must test fit the assembly in a similar manner (clamp large pieces of wood over the slats so as not to pinch the center) in order to judge the glued results. Laminating over the glued slats (cloth glued to wood) will stiffen them and keep the fit more consistent over time.

"Good fit" may be subjective today and historically. I like mine tighter than average (want them secure during transport, and do not want young children to be able to pull them out...also consistent with a few historical legends that in some cases, only strong warriors could get their sword out of the scabbard.) My 10 year old son can not draw a sword from any of my scabbards, while my 13 year old daughter can do it with some effort. For me it is no problem. I would probably loose any "quick draw contest" but have not seen movies or heard tales of rapid draw featuring medieval sword quick draw!

[Al Muckart]

[Kenton Spaulding]

Well after a couple of hours, a few sheets of 150 grit sandpaper, and a minor case of carpal tunnel I've got my core down a little more. Again, it looked a lot better before I saw a picture of it. I think the thickness must be relative to what scale I see it on. Anyway, here is where it stands now...I may work it down more tommorow, I may leave it as it is. The walls are between 2/16 - 3/16 of an inch now (I'm too American for metric )

Al, your scabbard is great by the way.

[Al Muckart]

Hi Kenton,

That's looking good.

I'm no expert on this, I'm just coming from a position of still processing my learning experiences from building my first one and remembering all the things that went wrong. Hopefully if I'm completely wrong about what I'm about to say one of the many people on here who know far far more about this than I do can correct me, but here goes...

It looks to me a bit like part of the chunkyness you perceive when you see the photos of this is because your cross section is quite rectangular. If you made it more oval then you could get a much daintier looking cross section without having to thin the walls down over the center of the flats of the blade. The material in the corners of the cross section is almost redundant because your blade is so thin there.

I've just knocked this picture up to try and illustrate what I mean. The top one is a rounded, but still quite rectangular cross section, the one below it is just as thick at the center of the blade but is oval in cross section, with the result that it looks less chunky. The next one down is just the two shapes superimposed, and the bottom one is a very slightly thinner oval.



If using sandpaper and a sanding block is giving you carpal tunnel, but a belt sander is too quick, try finding rubber sanding wheels that mount in a drill. I've got one of these that I've used for other things and they're quite handy for shaping wood. It's just an 8" or so rubber wheel with an axle that goes in a drill and can take different grades of sanding disc on the face of the wheel. It's flexible so you can do curved things nicely and if you put it in a cordless drill it doesn't remove stock so fast that you risk going too far.

[Kenton Spaulding]

I'm getting ready to cover the scabbard, but I'm not sure on what type of leather is appropriate. I've been looking around on TandyLeather.com , anybody have any suggestions on what I should be looking for? Also, is the belt the same weight as the scabbard cover? Would that be kinda flimsy? How would a piece like this work? http://www.tandyleather.com/prodinfo.asp?numb...p;mitem=39 (as you can probably tell I know nothing about leather ) Is leather difficult to dye? I'm thinking about dying it myself if it isn't too much trouble to do.

Thanks,

Kenton

[David Quivey]

Al, Kenton - I've always used a small plane to shape my scabbards - I'm always paranoid of cutting down too much wood too fast, and I've found the plane to be an excellent (and period) alternative to sand paper (either hand held or belt). I also have more controll over how much wood I'm taking off compared to a spoke shave, or another similar hand tool.

[James Barker]

I used these sides for my 2 scabbards:

https://www.siegelofca.com/itemdetail.asp?prodid=1017

I used a 2-3oz for the scabbard cover and 5-6oz for my belts. The price is always better than tandy and sometimes there are great sales.


Here is the scabbard I made for my Paul Binns blunt for 11th century reenactment:





I also just finished one for my Del Tin 2157 "ITALIAN MEDIEVAL SWORD" I will have pictures of it after my reenactment this weekend.

[Al Muckart]

[David Quivey]

[Al Muckart]

Hi Kenton,

[R. Howard Dawkins]

Al,
Excellent brain dump! Pictures are worth a thousand words...thanks for the in-depth tips!
Rob

[Jared Smith]

I agree with Al.
There is no great way to do the tip. I wrap a stiff paper or very thin cardboard with overlap. After drawing a centerline on this pattern piece, I slice it down the centerline. Unless the patterning material is slightly elastic (like wet leather) it will still be imperfect. Excess leather is needed and has to be trimmed while sewing. Similar issues occur if there are areas where you have glued on risers, embossed shapes, downturned wool "socks" (from liners), etc. The only way I have found to really get a perfect centerline is to cover once, mark in ink on the leather where and how much adjustments need to be made....then start over with a new piece of covering. Alternatively, you can cut the covering extra wide and punch holes fairly far apart (at least 3/8") from the seam. If you trim the seam as you go, the stiching will not be evenly spaced in terms of width when you use this "trim as you go" approach. I have just settled on uneven width between the stiches since I hate to through away a piece of leather that I have probably paid something like $10 to $20 U.S.

Fiebing's analine (alcohol based, not the water based institutional stuff) die works vastly better than Tandy's. I have tried both. Also, the Fiebing's Carnuba wax finish (different from the balm with Atom wax) gives the most professional looking finish. You need to burnish the leather both as the dye is drying and after applying the balm/wax to give it a shiny closed grain look like a professionally made shoe. I actually dye part way, then burnish as the wet look goes away when the dye is soaked up. This is done by rapidly rubbing the surface with a piece of canvas (painters canvas drop cloth will work... I use an empty bag from a 20 pound lead shot bag for shotgun shell reloading.) A friend of mine sewed up about 1 square foot of canvass like an oven mit, and has used it for hundreds of knife scabbards. Burnishing is done by very rapidly rubbing the canvass back and forth. You need friction and some noticeable temperature increase (like rubbing hands togather quickly can heat up the skin.) If you can get a hair dryer gun type blower, you should be able to dry the alcohol out within 5 to 10 minutes between covering, dyeing, and proceed right to the carnuba wax finish within the same hour that you finished stitching. When you stop the dryer, if the leather cools to the touch quickly, it indicates that alcohol is still evaporating and you need to dry more. The wax finish needs to dry slowly so that oils are absorbed. Set the waxed scabbard aside (after burnishing the wax finish) and do not disturb it for about two days. It may show finger prints if you handle it too soon after the waxing. Otherwise, it should look as nice as any store bought leather good you will ever see. A buff with a shoe shine finishing buffing brush should be the last step.

If you live in the U.S., you can order the Fiebing's professional dyes and the Carnuba wax finish from Siegal of California.
The image I posted in a previous post on my Knight scabbard is really as satin shiny/ glossy and smooth looking as it appears. It is not just lighting. That is due to the burnishing steps which close up the grain of the leather.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6096&highlight=

[Al Muckart]