[Mike Capanelli]

I couldn't believe how bad the sword and buckler match i watched was. They just sort of flailed away without even really using the bucklers. When they did use them it was in a "block and strike" way. They NEVER protected the sword hand. isn't that the point of the buckler? To protect the sword hand as to let you extend the reach of your sword? I couldn't bring myself to watch a longsword match. You know if it was stage combat I could at least respect it. Not that stage guys are doing anything accurate with what they call "broadswords". At least they know it's more of a dance and their not really fighting. That's my 2 cents.

[Bill Grandy]

You know, in the reenactment world there are people who strive for 100% accuracy. Then there are people who enjoy putting on a costume bought from MRL and going to the Ren Fairre. Is there anything wrong with the second group?

I myself strive to recreate historical European swordsmanship based on historical research. These guys have fun without doing so. Does that make them bad people?

[Mike Capanelli]

I don't think their bad guys. And they are having fun. If you browse their web site though they are sort of implying what their doing is historical. If their having fun, and it does look like fun, Then more power to em'. And as a side note, I'm a part of both groups. I train WMA and go to the NYRF every season. So again I don't think their bad guys, Just don't try to pass something like that off as historical is all.

Blessings,
Michael

[Jean Thibodeau]

[W. Schütz]

[Mark Shier]

I was at the NLHF, where some of the videos were shot, and saw UK "Re-enactor Combat" for the first time.
From what I saw, it is a combat system designed for safety and entertainment value, not historical realism. Most re-enactor battles in the UK are done for paying audiences. Many events being re-enacted are from the early middle ages, so safety considerations have to deal with open face helmets.
Most of the UK re-enactor combats systems use a very restricted set of blows, ie. the "Fives" ( see http://www.vikingsna.org/guides/fives/ ). SCA takes a different tack for safety, instead of restricting blows, it has replaced the steel sword with a rattan club. Just like SCA combat, "Re-enactor Combat" isn't very historical, but like SCA combat, it can be fun to do and to watch.
mark

[Mike Capanelli]

[Bill Grandy]

There's nothing wrong with discussing a group. But when it is publically done, and when the people being discussed aren't present, it can lead down paths that bring up some negative issues.

I've seen so many people turned off to proper WMA because "outsiders" insulted the way they do things publically (on the internet) without talking to them. They then get defensive, and say that there's no way of proving how these things were done from a bunch of poorly drawn pictures, and that all WMA people are a bunch of snobs who need to get off they're high horses and come back to reality. I think WMA has really received a lot of bad press because too many well intentioned WMA preachers have tried to show everyone else the one true way which proves everyone else wrong. Let's face it, nobody likes to be told they're wrong, or that the things they've learned are silly. It's a totally different thing encourage the people in question rather than talk about them publically behind their back.

I'm not saying anyone on this thread is being insulting. But consider that a thread in a public forum isn't a private conversation between a couple friends, so these sorts of discussions are kind of in bad taste. Even though it doesn't feel like a public announcement about a group when you're at home typing at your computer, in essence that's what posting on a public forum is doing.

For the record, I'm not trying to come down on anyone in particular. In fact, groups that do non-historic fighting for show do more damage to people like me, who make a living on this stuff, then they do to most people: The less people understand that Europe developed sophisticated forms of martial arts, the less people would want to hire guys like me to teach it. Nonetheless, we have to accept that not everyone cares about it: We're only talking about swords, after all.

[Bob Burns]

As a spectator at the Bristol Renaissance Fair on the IL / WI border, I have always very much enjoyed the reenactment battles at the jousting grounds. Especially as a spectator who formally trained in a martial art thou never in the european medieval combat arts, I am very impressed at the skill levels that I see. If I were some 20 years younger ( 48 now) and not the broken down old warhorse that I am with arthritis in my back from too many years of over doing it, this is something I would like to learn. It's a beautiful thing to watch and there is always part of me that wishes I could partake in the action. Sure looks like a lot of fun!

Love the shows!

Bob

[Nick Dunning]

I go to a few of the shows where they do this and am probably going to enter it myself at some point. A couple of things I will point out to those that have never seen this done live, which I would presume is most people here, and therefore are unaware of the context:

1) The tourney is ran by the company that makes the weapons, and in that respect you must consider that one of the primary markets that the company is appealing to is the re-enactors that purchase rebated blades. What better way to advertise that your products are strong and won't break than to put the in an environment where the contact is heavier than they will see in normal use?

2) Those taking part are re-enactors who often like history and enjoy having a bash, but don't take it all the way into serious study of historical combat.

3) On the one which I witnessed from the beginning, they announced at the start that it is re-enactors having at each other for fun rather than an actual glimpse into a duel, and did make mention of western martial arts (particularly that most of the fighters have never done them). This is not recorded on the video.

Basically, it is a fun event that is used to sell swords to re-enactors and to let the public watch people hitting armour with weapons. The rules are below (taken from http://www.livinghistoryfayres.com/index_files/Page512.html)

Full contact combat guidelines for 2005 full contact tourney's at NLHF etc.

Whether or not you have taken part in one of our Full Contact Medieval Combat Tourneys, please read these notes. The aim is to have fun (defined as entertaining for all those taking part), whilst at the same time competing in a full contact medieval tournament (defined as vigorous medieval style combat to defined targets points without pulling the strike), with no ill will or prejudice.
Flagrant use of modern martial arts is likely result in you forfeiting the match (e.g. Escrima), whereas flagrant use of chivalry, will likely earn you points.

Medieval Tournaments were often the sponsored equivalent to modern football matches, their prime objectives was to promote the sponsor, entertain the masses as well as make the participants famous and wealthy… and it was mostly done with a strong degree of “honour, gramercy and gude will”. Whereas we will make every Endeavour to ensure the best safety we can… It follows the very nature of the event suggests there are risks to your person and you are strongly advised to not take part if you are worried about being injured

Minimum Armour requirements:-
The object is to be adequately protected at the moment when every thing else fails…

Steel Helms and steel Gauntlets are mandatory.
Helms; must be of a substantial steel plate construction (not less than 1.6mm – although 2mm is better), preferably not of welded construction, with mail ventail, coif or bevor to protect the throat.
Gauntlets; must be of substantial construction and capable of reducing a hard wallop from a steel bar - to merely a painful experience.
Padded Gamsdon; should be substantial enough to protect the bones near the surface (shoulders, elbow’s, wrists, ribs, pelvic bones & hip joints), with either plate or mail body armour.
Leg protection; should be plate armour or heavy leather armour or mail with padding, to protect Knees and shins. If the Marshals feel your armour is lacking in any way... you will be given the time of one bout to rectify the problem.[“looks like” padding, very thin plate armour or thin leather armour - won’t pass.]

Contestants will choose from a variety of matching weighted weapons provided by us.

Target areas; are almost anywhere you can get a solid hit (audible to all - without maiming), aiming for your opponents armour without hitting a non-target area.
Non target areas; “face, neck/throat, groin, knees and feet” are strictly forbidden no second warnings. Also “hands, wrists, shoulder joints, elbow joints, pelvic bone and hip joints,” are non-target areas, persistent warnings may result in you being disqualified. Take care when striking areas where bones near the surface“.

Type of attack strikes desired should ideally be mostly angled downwards, aimed at armour.
Head strikes should ideally be a downward strike at the upper centre of the helm… Horizontal strikes or uppercuts to the neck & face are not permitted, neck & face is defined as an area from the collar bone to a horizontal line set 2 inch (50mm) above the ears/eyes = (2” above the eye line).
Stabbing is not permitted.
Grappling & Kicking is not permitted.

Marshal’s role and powers; Marshals are the guardians of every ones sanity and safety at the point in time when every one else has become insane and unsafe. They will manage the actual combat in the tournament space. They’ll have a number of key thoughts in their minds; (ensure competitors equipment is up to scratch and fits properly, keep combat within the arena space, ensure the style and content of the combat will not cause injury and give the competitors enough time and space to enjoy themselves).
Marshal’s instructions and directions require mandatory, instant compliances.
Marshal’s will stop a tournament if they feel one or both participants’ actions prejudice safety.
Marshal's have the power to request a competitor to leave the field.

Judges Roles and guidelines; THREE or FOUR Judges will be chosen from volunteer re-enactors visiting on the day, they will have experience in medieval combat and be known for their fairness. Their task will be to decide a winner for each pair; They will include the following factors in their judging:--
• Control and skill with weapons
• Defense, style and technique.
• Attitude and controlled aggression.

The obvious statements put into very succinct plain English;
The whole ethos of these tournaments is a fun, friendly competitive scenario; open to both male and female armoured medieval combatants over the age of 18 years.
Excessive aggression or force, poor attitude or repeated warnings could result in you forfeiting the match.
NEVER – EVER ARGUE WITH MARSHALS, it is probably the single thing most likely to get you banned from the tournament ring.

The judges decisions is final… please don’t bother them after the event with your opinion of the fight… we asked them to volunteer and they will have done their best.

•If you loose your weapon more than twice, you will forfeit the match.
•If the Marshals decide your kit is not up to recommended standards… you won’t take part.
•If you have a reputation for maiming your opponents… you won’t take part.
•If we think you may be using the tournament as way of trying to settle old scores… you won’t take part.
•If you smell of alcohol or are suspected of taking controlled substances… you won’t take part.

READ THIS BIT IT IS IMPORTANT; whereas we have an impeccable safety record... this hobby is dangerous (equal to any other extreme sport).
If you are the type of person who is likely to attempt to sue us or your opponent, because he broke your finger… PLEASE DO NOT TAKE PART.

Combat format :-
First round = 3 minutes duration combat
All other rounds= 2 minutes duration combat

Please note: These guidelines are a condensed version of the Inter-Medieval guidelines applied at EMA Caldicot Tourneys, if you have any queries about these guidelines or the actual tourneys, please contact me

Best wishes

Roger Lankford
Lancasters Armouries

[Kel Rekuta]