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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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 Posted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Blades of the Renaissance |
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Couple of things-
#1. Which blades were used/popular during the Renaissance (target dates Late 1400s to 1600s)?
I am getting more and more interested in historical accuracy.
My current favorite is a langes or grosse messer. I've always liked single edge pieces and I like the design of the weapon.
#2. What was a typical side arm to messer?
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Alexander Hinman
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| Posted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Blades of the Renaissance |
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| Matthew D M wrote: | Couple of things-
#1. Which blades were used/popular during the Renaissance (target dates Late 1400s to 1600s)?
I am getting more and more interested in historical accuracy. |
Well, I can't answer this directly, but I will say that a more specific question would be helpful. What context are you looking in? As a civilian sidearm or a military sword?
| Quote: | My current favorite is a langes or grosse messer. I've always liked single edge pieces and I like the design of the weapon.
#2. What was a typical side arm to messer? |
Talhoffer's 1467 fechtbuch shows messers on their own, but his 1459 version shows them used with bucklers.
see here.
At this point, I think I should let someone more knowledgeable than I take over.
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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Blades of the Renaissance |
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| Alexander Hinman wrote: | [
Well, I can't answer this directly, but I will say that a more specific question would be helpful. What context are you looking in? As a civilian sidearm or a military sword?
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I would just like a general guide (long swords, cinquedea, messers, falchions, etc) I'm sure scottish dirks, basket hilts, and rapiers weren't 'popular' during the time I specified. I could be wrong so I would like some correction. If someone could post a link to a pictoral sword timeline, that would be wonderful (I have been unable to locate one myself)!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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In order to define what was popular, we must narrow the question down. What reigion of Europe is of interest to you? Many places in Europe were slow to adopt new technologies while others were very speicific in their regional preferences.
The timeframe of 1400-1699 is an absolutely huge span of time and happens to be amongst the most active period of change of arms design. We'd really have to get much, much more specific than this. This is perhaps the biggest problem with this question: it's just too large of a timeframe. If you narrow it down to 50 years, we could all land on at least a short list of answers.
Further, one would need to discuss class: what was popular for a peasant was quite different than that of a footsoldier, knight, civilian merchant or scholar, noble, etc. What was popular on foot was quite different than arms designed for cavalry, tournament, or civilian defense.
There are simply too much variables to give an answer to such a broad question. A better question might be, "What was popular for a German man-at-arms, circa 1525?" Crazy as it might sound, even such a question would not yield a simple and concise answer.
In terms of a pictorial timeline, you might get some value out of this article: Forms of European Edged Weaponry, but your answers really would come from reading multiple sources such as the articles in our Features Section or in the books in our Reading List.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu 16 Mar, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan,
thanks for the response. I know it would be easier to narrow the timeline, but I wanted the broad range.
But, if I had to go narrow, I'd go 1480-1530 german middle class to peasant (since I want a messer as my main weapon).
Last edited by Matthew D M on Fri 17 Mar, 2006 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I'm surely no expert, but It hink I can tell you a few things about this period.
The interesting thing is that culture in general was changing very fast at this time - especially fashion hadn't changed that much for a long time.
As for weapons:
At the end of the 15th century the normal cross-hilted longsword was still in use, but often with a curved s-shaped crossguard. People also started to add little bars and rings to the hilt for better hand-protection, which eventually resulted in those awesome looking complex-hilted longswords. The blades changed as well. Pointy and rather stiff blades of (hollow-ground) diamond cross-section remained popular (XVa, XVIII).
IIRC blades of flat hexagonal cross-section became popular in the 16th century as well (Type XIX).
In general hilts started to become more complex offering more hand-protection. A lot of different blade-designs were in use.
So, I'll stop before I start telling nonsense 
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Can I add something on to Matthew's question please?
What types of swords would have been used by soldiers (pikemen, musketeers and cavalry) in western Europe, i.e. Britain, France and Germany from about 1620-1650 AD, i.e. the period of the 30 years war and the English Civil war. Films like the 3 musketeers etc would have us believe everyone used rapiers, but I was under the impression that the rapier was primarily a civilian weapon.
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | Can I add something on to Matthew's question please?
What types of swords would have been used by soldiers (pikemen, musketeers and cavalry) in western Europe, i.e. Britain, France and Germany from about 1620-1650 AD, i.e. the period of the 30 years war and the English Civil war. Films like the 3 musketeers etc would have us believe everyone used rapiers, but I was under the impression that the rapier was primarily a civilian weapon. |
You might want to check out this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5851
To sum it up: What most people think of as a "true" Rapier was definitely not used on the battlefield. Military-swords had complex hilts with side- and finger-rings as well as knuckle-guards and so on, but their blades were either broad cutting or cut-and-thrust designs.
A Rapier would have been a bad choice against a Kürrasier of Wallenstein's army wearing bulletproof three-quarter armour.
Rapiers were used for a short period during the English civil war, but were quickly abandoned since they proved to be useless on the battlefield with more than one opponent(who might often even wear plate-armour)
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Daniel Staberg
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | Can I add something on to Matthew's question please?
What types of swords would have been used by soldiers (pikemen, musketeers and cavalry) in western Europe, i.e. Britain, France and Germany from about 1620-1650 AD, i.e. the period of the 30 years war and the English Civil war. Films like the 3 musketeers etc would have us believe everyone used rapiers, but I was under the impression that the rapier was primarily a civilian weapon. |
Hisham,
You'll find a nice selection of military blades from that period at http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/ArmeObjectListPage____306.aspx
which shows part of the collection of the Swedish Army Museum, clicking on each picture will bring up a new page with more detailed pictures.
The page is swedish only so heres a couple of translations:
officer=officer ;-)
manskap= enlisted men (and Non-commisioned officers)
Infanteriet=the infantry
ryttare= horseman, i.e cavalryman
The collection is interesting since it has swords with complex hilt style such as the Pappenheimer which is second from the top and more simple style such as the Dutch-Swedish style of of the third and fourth swords from the top. The later style originated in the Netherlands but was exported to Sweden and was so common in Swedish service that it became known as the 'Swedish' style in Germany during the 30 years war. Similar swords were exported to the Brittish isles during the English Civil War both from Sweden and the Netherlands.
The third sword from the top is labeled as an officer's sword on the webpage but I've seen other sources regard it as a good quality sword for a ordinary cavalry trooper.
Cheers
Daniel
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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The messer is primarily, though not exclusively, a civilian weapon, as I understand it. In civilian use it is the only weapon one might generally carry, apart from a staff, perhaps. It might have a small knife, skewer or fork in its scabbard as well. A peasant soldier of the period would be likely to carry a pike or halberd as his primary weapon. He might carry a messer as a secondary weapon, but it seems much more common for him to carry a katzbalger or baselard. A rondel or ballock dagger would be appropriate as well.
I'll second what's already been said--there were many new types of blade in use during this period and many of the old types persisted. The question is not unlike asking what motor vehicles were in use from 1900-2006. One simply doesn't know where to begin answering the question. 
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Wolfgang and Daniel. That was really helpful.
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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | The messer is primarily, though not exclusively, a civilian weapon, as I understand it. In civilian use it is the only weapon one might generally carry, apart from a staff, perhaps. It might have a small knife, skewer or fork in its scabbard as well. A peasant soldier of the period would be likely to carry a pike or halberd as his primary weapon. He might carry a messer as a secondary weapon, but it seems much more common for him to carry a katzbalger or baselard. A rondel or ballock dagger would be appropriate as well.
I'll second what's already been said--there were many new types of blade in use during this period and many of the old types persisted. The question is not unlike asking what motor vehicles were in use from 1900-2006. One simply doesn't know where to begin answering the question. |
Thanks for the reply.
So a reasonable kit for a commoner would be a messer, a knife, flatware, and perhaps a staff?
I understand about the car comparison; what I should have asked was what blades were NOT used during the Renaissance.
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Alex B.
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew D M wrote: |
Thanks for the reply.
So a reasonable kit for a commoner would be a messer, a knife, flatware, and perhaps a staff? |
In a civillian context, sure. In a military context, swap the knife for a dagger and swap the staff for a halberd and include a good gambison and maybe a kettle hat.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex B. wrote: | | Matthew D M wrote: |
Thanks for the reply.
So a reasonable kit for a commoner would be a messer, a knife, flatware, and perhaps a staff? |
In a civillian context, sure. In a military context, swap the knife for a dagger and swap the staff for a halberd and include a good gambison and maybe a kettle hat. |
Or, in the early 16th c., an iron skullcap and possibly a simple breast. See the Osprey "Landesknecht" book. It has good illustrations of all the Landesknecht kit for the period. If you're interested in German civilian arms of the period, you should also get Osprey's book on the German Peasant Wars. Both are very inexpensive and provide a good introduction.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again for the answers. I have actually seen those books before, so I guess it's now time to buy. I'm going more for civilian than soldier (but I guess in those times, civilians were soldiers, even when they didn't want to be).
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Matthew D M
Location: SouthEast Texas Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 63
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This is a standard topic