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Brian M




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that the major problem for me (and perhaps others) is that the 10-15% increase is going to make it that much harder to do the "buy 6, get 1 free" deal within the year time frame. I did it last year and got the Tritonia for my 7th sword, but it stretched my available finances to the limit.
With a 10-15% increase times 6 swords, that's a long way to the cost of another sword. If one bought 6 swords at an average of $700 each last year, an average increase of 12% will cause the price of the same 6 swords to increase by a net total of $504 this year.
That is a problem for me. It will almost certainly mean that I buy fewer swords in the long run, because hitting the 6 within a year will now be more difficult. So I may only buy one or two swords a year that I really want and watch the used market for any others.

Brian M
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the concerns are certainly fair as consumers, but let's face it: Everything gets more expensive. Cars, groceries, gas, whatever. While I understand the desire to voice concerns, I don't think it's at all out of the question that Albion's prices are going up. Will this affect my ability to buy their items? Absolutely. Such is life.

Look at it from a craftsman's point of view as well. How often do we hear of sword makers who charge very reasonable prices get overwhelmed by people who want to buy from them. The craftsman has to make a living, so he takes the orders and the money. After a certain point it is hard to keep up with fulfilling the orders, which means customers are getting upset that they have to wait past deadlines, but in the meantime the craftsman has to take more orders in order to survive, which only means a bigger backlog and more people are unhappy. That's part of why custom sword makers almost have to put a high price tag on their wares. Those who appreciate the quality will put the extra money down, those who can't afford it will just have to either save longer or spend elsewhere. The craftsman will have less orders to fulfill because of this, but in theory can still make ends meet due to the increased price, and the customers that they do have will in theory be happier due to the fact that their sword was completed on time and no short cuts were taken.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't even realize that one had to purchase 6 swords within one year to receive the 7th one free. I would hope that Albion would be willing to modify this deal, especially after the price increase, to allow people to take advantage of it whenever they're able to purchase six swords, rather than limit the time frame to a single year.

Craig
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Jason Elrod




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Ralph Rudolph wrote:
[...]you almost get a custom piece for your money.


Amen to that!


Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. Based on what criteria? Handling, fit and finish, uniqueness of product. I don't know. Albion swords are nice, I've owned 3 and have 3 more on pre-order but once swords start edging near that $1000 mark then I'd rather pay more, go fully custom and get exactly what I want. It just feels wrong to me to compare a production company's sword to anything that is fully custom. On the other hand I wouldn't mind paying more for some of their lower priced swords. In the end I guess everyone has their own criteria for determining what a sword is worth.
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let me say this, because this is very important and is quite relative to all things in business. Myself, for example, I install vinyl flooring as well as sheet vinyl, also ceramic, I am very good at what I do and I do have a certain rate that I charge, of which a lot of flooring stores are not willing to pay. Now think about this when you buy flooring. I've been in this industry for 12 years, I have walked into stores with my price list and had owners or managers tell me they will not pay my prices, wherein the conversation came to an abrupt end and I left. Customer satisfaction is the most important thing to me and I have a right to make a fair wage for what I do and proper reward of my skills. I have seen countless installations that were done wrong, I do a job and I do it right, no corners are ever cut! Most stores go with who will install the cheapest and deal with the irrate customer later.

When you are in the business of 1st class swords your going to want the best bladesmiths working for you, as a customer your going to want to know that the best smiths are making these swords you are willing to pay a premium price for and it's only common sense that the bladesmith is going to want a fair wage for his highly developed skills.

I would not want an unhappy bladesmith or a bladesmith who is not all that skilled or does not care about what he is doing, I want to know that smith is happy in his job in a rewarding career doing what he loves, because that is why I am willing to pay $600 to say $1,000.00 for in a sword, otherwise I can just go to MRL or somewhere else and buy an imported sword.

I think I also asked questions in a way that was advantagious to the manufacturers, giving them an opportunity in seeing the reaction of the market on a small scale as well as getting the answers met to which would bring resolve to the customers that the increase was valid and therefore continue to buy knowing the price is indeed a fair one.


Also, swords at this level are pretty much custom swords made on a production scale, I include Arms & Armor as well as Albion in this statement. Otherwise these swords would be well over a thousand dollars a piece.

Sincerely,

Bob
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think people fully realize exactly how valuable the co-operation between Peter Johnsson and Albion actually is. The Next Generation venture is a tremendous asset for the sword community; collectors and practitioners alike. Even if Albion instituted a 50% price increase I'd still buy their swords -not because I collect, but because I want the best available tools that I can afford for my training.

Besides, I've never come upon a company with such nice people aboard as Albion, and therefor I will do whatever I can to support them.
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Elrod wrote:
Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Ralph Rudolph wrote:
[...]you almost get a custom piece for your money.


Amen to that!


Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. Based on what criteria?


He said "almost", didn't he? Happy
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William C Champlin




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Price increase etc.         Reply with quote

After having bought two Albion swords used (thanks Christopher and Jason) I was moved to purchase another sword from them direct (admittedly on sale). I can honestly say that I would rather have a quality sword and support the craftsmen who produced it than shore up a company that relies on excessively cheap labor and produces medium quality products. That is to say, I would rather have one Albion Prince than six or seven MRL Shrewsburys.W.
tweetchris
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson makes great custom swords. He also makes great sword designs for Albion. Albion makes production swords from those designs. They may be very fine swords, but they are not custom or near custom.

It's very tricky increasing prices after the cost of your materials, etc. goes up. Too little, and you go out of business - too much and your customers may go elsewhere. Time will prove out whether Albion calculated well.
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
They may be very fine swords, but they are not custom or near custom.



Well, they ain't Del Tins, that's for sure. I still consider them as near custom blades as a production sword can be. And that's from solely viewing them from the handling aspect.
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps I should correct myself here stating that these are "pretty much custom swords at a production rate".

I should have said, "These are swords at the utmost top end of production quality before going to the next level, that being a custom sword.

Hope that sounds better, as I did not mean to compare a highly prized custom sword to a production sword wherein the swordsmith has spent a special amount of time and effort to minute detail that a production sword of course would not get. If that was done to a production sword, might as well close the doors cause your gonna go broke in a hurry!

Bob
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Elrod wrote:


Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. Based on what criteria? Handling, fit and finish, uniqueness of product. I don't know. Albion swords are nice, I've owned 3 and have 3 more on pre-order but once swords start edging near that $1000 mark then I'd rather pay more, go fully custom and get exactly what I want. It just feels wrong to me to compare a production company's sword to anything that is fully custom. On the other hand I wouldn't mind paying more for some of their lower priced swords. In the end I guess everyone has their own criteria for determining what a sword is worth.


I have never commissioned a custom sword. I have more than a half-a-dozen production swords.

Here are my thoughts.

I agree that a sword is worth whatever you feel it is worth. A piece of junk could be priceless due to sentimental value.

I think that under some circumstances custom swords and production swords are readily comparable. If it is the same sword with the same characteristics at the end of the day, I do not care who made it. Should I get a custom smith to make me the sword of savante Nilsson, instead of buying it from Albion, just so that I can say a have a "custom sword"? A quality. product is a quality product, no matter what one calls it.

the crucial piece here is what we are comparing. Historical accuracy, quality, price, attention to detail, ability to follow the customer's requests, etc. My argument is that the Albion swords are great, and that they can substitute for a custom sword, if that is the sword that the customer wants.

Sometimes, I think that because we pay more money for them we claim that custom pieces are better. This is not always correct. A custom piece usually means one of a kind, unique. To make such a piece, the maker needs to research it, play with it until he/she gets it right and then make one final product. This is time consuming and the rewards needs to be proportionally increased. In production pieces the same process applies but once it is gotten right, very little more is necessary to keep making many of the same quality product. I.e. the price tag can be dropped.

In my opinion, custom jobs are for making something not already made, or not made at a decent quality. That is about it! And I have enough Albion swords to say that they are way above "decent quality". So if I like a sword from albion, I will buy it from them, especially the Museum Line Swords.

So in other words, I think production and custom swords could be compared if the production company researches the product and is devoted to the same quality standards as the custom one. True, there will be fewer options for "upgrades" and changes.

So if we are to say that Albion swords are not as good as custom, we need to explain our reasoning. Price alone is not convincing. Inability to control for every detail is actually great, as I want Peter J. to determine what the sword should look like, as opposed to me making these calls. Is the quality of custom pieces much better? Likely not.

If I really want a sword that Albion or A&A do not make, I will go custom and pay the extra cash. Does that mean that I am going to get a better sword than Albion's or A&A's............likely not. It has been discussed before that forged swords are not necessarily better than ground ones. BUT I will be getting a unique piece that I really want . That is usually worth the extra money.

If I want a sword and there is a quality production one available, I will buy the production sword 10 out of 10 times.

My thoughts,

Alexi
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Jason Elrod




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Jason Elrod wrote:
Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Ralph Rudolph wrote:
[...]you almost get a custom piece for your money.


Amen to that!


Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. Based on what criteria?


He said "almost", didn't he? Happy


He most certainly did. Again we haven't defined or qualified what makes Albion's swords "almost" custom. And to be completely fair, I haven't said why I don't really agree with saying that Albion swords are close to custom. WTF?! Big Grin Nor has Roger Hooper given any reason's for saying that Albion's swords are not custom nor near to custom. Your point about handling properties of Albion swords vs. a custom sword is just one factor of many when comparing production vs. custom and not necessarily the primary reason for someone to go custom or even buy a production sword. I think any debate about custom vs. production is a completely different discussion with too many variables that would ultimately derail this thread concerning Albion's price increase.

I will say for my part, I believe that Albion makes a great sword. I consider the Next Gens a huge step above and beyond what the 1st Gens were in terms of handling, finish, and historical accuracy. Basically better in every category. Albion will always be one of those companies that I will consider buying from even with their price increase. I don't even consider a 10%-15% increase too bad considering the quality of their product and I personally think that some swords, such as the Talhoffer, are under priced. I think most people are going to shrug, accept the price increase, and buy an Albion sword.

Me I'm going to buy the Munich and probably the Museum Line version of the Munich regardless of price. I've wanted swords that are as close to the original as possible. I have no doubt that Peter and Albion will deliver quality reproductions. There is no need to go anywhere else. Other than those swords I like to keep my options open.

There are other companies out there with swords that handle as well as Albion's or are finished as nice or have a combination of both qualities for a lesser price. I have to ask myself, what do I want in my next sword purchase? How much is it worth to me? What sword company, artist, individual etc will be able to fulfill the qualities that I'm most looking for in my next sword? Will I take a chance on a new sword company over someone whose more established? Whose the most enthusiastic about producing my sword (if I go custom)?

I'm starting to ramble.

In the end I think the price increase is at an acceptable level. Personally I'll continue to do what I've always done and weigh the pros and cons of buying any sword, whether it's from Albion, Lutel, Gus, Del Tin, etc. . . unless of course I haven't bought a sword in about six months and I am going through sword withdraw and need something right now Laughing Out Loud
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Jason Elrod




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Jason Elrod wrote:


Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. Based on what criteria? Handling, fit and finish, uniqueness of product. I don't know. Albion swords are nice, I've owned 3 and have 3 more on pre-order but once swords start edging near that $1000 mark then I'd rather pay more, go fully custom and get exactly what I want. It just feels wrong to me to compare a production company's sword to anything that is fully custom. On the other hand I wouldn't mind paying more for some of their lower priced swords. In the end I guess everyone has their own criteria for determining what a sword is worth.


I have never commissioned a custom sword. I have more than a half-a-dozen production swords.

Here are my thoughts.

I agree that a sword is worth whatever you feel it is worth. A piece of junk could be priceless due to sentimental value.

I think that under some circumstances custom swords and production swords are readily comparable. If it is the same sword with the same characteristics at the end of the day, I do not care who made it. Should I get a custom smith to make me the sword of savante Nilsson, instead of buying it from Albion, just so that I can say a have a "custom sword"? A quality. product is a quality product, no matter what one calls it.

the crucial piece here is what we are comparing. Historical accuracy, quality, price, attention to detail, ability to follow the customer's requests, etc. My argument is that the Albion swords are great, and that they can substitute for a custom sword, if that is the sword that the customer wants.

Sometimes, I think that because we pay more money for them we claim that custom pieces are better. This is not always correct. A custom piece usually means one of a kind, unique. To make such a piece, the maker needs to research it, play with it until he/she gets it right and then make one final product. This is time consuming and the rewards needs to be proportionally increased. In production pieces the same process applies but once it is gotten right, very little more is necessary to keep making many of the same quality product. I.e. the price tag can be dropped.

In my opinion, custom jobs are for making something not already made, or not made at a decent quality. That is about it! And I have enough Albion swords to say that they are way above "decent quality". So if I like a sword from albion, I will buy it from them, especially the Museum Line Swords.

So in other words, I think production and custom swords could be compared if the production company researches the product and is devoted to the same quality standards as the custom one. True, there will be fewer options for "upgrades" and changes.

So if we are to say that Albion swords are not as good as custom, we need to explain our reasoning. Price alone is not convincing. Inability to control for every detail is actually great, as I want Peter J. to determine what the sword should look like, as opposed to me making these calls. Is the quality of custom pieces much better? Likely not.

If I really want a sword that Albion or A&A do not make, I will go custom and pay the extra cash. Does that mean that I am going to get a better sword than Albion's or A&A's............likely not. It has been discussed before that forged swords are not necessarily better than ground ones. BUT I will be getting a unique piece that I really want . That is usually worth the extra money.

If I want a sword and there is a quality production one available, I will buy the production sword 10 out of 10 times.

My thoughts,

Alexi


I agree with you completely Alexi and I in no way intended to imply that custom pieces were inherently better than a production piece. Just different. Right now I have everything that I want pre-ordered before the price increase. Albion doesn't have any other swords that I "need" to add to my collection so the 10%-15% increase will give me pause but won't necessarily stop me from buying another sword from them. Right now the swords that I'm interested in have not been produced by any production sword company that I can find so I have to go custom. Simple as that for me.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
They may be very fine swords, but they are not custom or near custom.



Well, they ain't Del Tins, that's for sure. I still consider them as near custom blades as a production sword can be. And that's from solely viewing them from the handling aspect.


I don't want this thread to turn nasty or to play different companies against each other- I'll be as careful as I can --


I wasn't comparing them to Del Tins. Yes, they are of higher quality, though different in purpose than Del Tins.

Are they better than Arms and Armor swords? I'm not sure. In general, do they cost more? Yes.

Don't misunderstand me, I really like Albion's stuff. I have 4 of their swords and one on order. I''ll buy more. But if they do something that displeases me, I'm not afraid to say so.

As for the custom question, maybe I'm not knowledgable enough to have a meaningful opinion, but I'll try to respond in a very general way. I'm sure that the Next Gens (and the Museum line even more so) are of higher quality than the creations of some custom makers. But when I think of custom, artists like Kevin Cashen, Vince Evans, Peter Johnsson come to my mind. The skill and time they lavish on a single sword will exceed what any production company can do. And as fine as a Peter Johnsson designed Next Gen is, if I could afford it, I would rather have a Peter Johnsson custom sword.
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Odd, I figured someone from Albion would have chimed in by now.

Personally, I don't mind the price increase. I buy a sword every couple of years. That's due to not having a lot of disposable income because I have a family and being very picky in what I decide to get. Plus, I won't ever buy another sword on credit again. I bought my first Albion (the Crecy) during the last sale after having saved up a dollar here and five there for the last six months (imagine the surprise/frustration of the Post Office worker when I handed him $155 in five dollar bills, $176 in ones, $33 in quarters, and $10 in dimes). By the time I can afford another Albion, they will likely have raised the price twice more. Just means I'll have to save for eight months to buy.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Odd, I figured someone from Albion would have chimed in by now.

I wouldn't if I were them. I'd stay clear of this topic.

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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Jonathan Blair wrote:
Odd, I figured someone from Albion would have chimed in by now.

I wouldn't if I were them. I'd stay clear of this topic.


It does seem rather prickly.

I'd like to give a brief comment on Alexi's thoughts regarding custom vs. production.

The logic he applies - that custom requires individual attention that then is only spent one one piece, essentially raising the overhead - makes sense. But I think that in many cases, a custom smith will produce a substantially finer product than a production line can afford to. The materials used, the perfection of finish, the amount of creativity and care that goes into the creation of the *one* set of mountings for the sword, the refinement of any details within the blade itself (pattern welding? Japanese metallurgical activities? Polish?) are all pretty visibly superior to any production level sword available. For example, I'd challenge anyone to find a production sword that matches the following for quality (please click on the images to see full, or the point of this post will be very much lost):






Perhaps I'm being very obvious and Alexi wholeheartedly agrees with me, but just in case, I wanted to defend the idea that sometimes custom *very much does* mean higher quality. VERY higher...

-GLL
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Odd, I figured someone from Albion would have chimed in by now.


All downside for them to do so.

What are they going to say, people are not being fair to them?

We don't understand?

No way I'd comment here, no gain in doing so.

Just let everyone say their piece and go on with life. This will all blow over in a few days, people will either buy or not buy, and Albion will assess the impact on their cash flow. The bottom line really is the bottom line after all. If sales drop significantly (I don't think they will) then Albion will try something else. However, in the near term what everyone overlooks, is that the spector of a price increase brought sales forward and locked them in. Money, especially in an inflationary economy, has a time value. Getting those orders and deposits in advance on a large enough scale more than offsets any lost sales. It sure got me to buy something I hadn't planned on buying, so I guess I really showed them a price increase was a bad idea.

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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Jonathan Blair wrote:
Odd, I figured someone from Albion would have chimed in by now.

I wouldn't if I were them. I'd stay clear of this topic.


No kidding, not even with a 10' pole,

Not to derail or stir up strife but I do not understand where anyone gets the idea that in a free market system there price increase needs to be justified to anyone, just my 2 cents.

Lets face it most of us here are "nuts", we spend $ on swords that others use to buy major appliances, granted I think there "nuts" when you could make do with cheaper so you could get more swords. The bottom line IMHO is that if you find one of these 'steel' treasures that you "need" you are going to find away to pay, if you don't you won't. That is the beauty of the free market system.
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