Chuck,

I appreciate some of the details you and several others (Bill, Christian, Allan and a few others) point out about kit from time to time here. Add that with some lurking in forums where kit is the main topic of discussion, and some of the things that are off start to stick out a bit more.

Thanks

Got it, thanks Chuck I had also forgotten about the anatomy of armour articles in the featured section of this site so combining that with the descriptions you and Christian gave and I understand know... Alex

hey no problem man. its always good to learn something new isnt it? wonderful feeling. damn i shoulda been a teacher... naaaaaaa hehehe

Gents,

I'll try to get a photo of the modifications tonight or tomorrow for you.

All the best,

CHT

If I missed it, I apologize, but I did not see Armour and Castings on the list. They have a very nice Gothic suit that Aaron is having made (had made?).

I order quite often from Beathan and the work from his shop is outstanding and holds up the repeated beatings I give my armour from jousting and from WMA. It is also custom fit to you and he can adjust the gauge to make it from a nice, show piece to a super solid tourney suit.

I'd like the second the Armour And Castings vote from Lloyd. Although I have yet to order anything from him (something I hope to change soon!) I would like to say that if anyone wants further evidence of his quality and timely approach to getting things done, please search "Beathan" or "Armor and Castings" on www.armourarchive.org in the forum search.

Cheers!

-Gregory-

Alexander,

Just a few points. Selecting good armour isn't always the easiest thing to do. The first thing to keep in mind is what you will be using it for and what period you want to portray. From the tone of the posts it sounds like you are interested in the late 15th century, if so there's a lot to choose from. If you are just looking for protection of some sort for WMA just about anything that articulates well and looks like armour will be fine. If you are going for more of a historical look and leaning towards LH you will have to be more critical.

Since LH is my area of interest I will attempt to give a few pointers to that direction. The first thing is to look at and photo copy as many photos (not artist rendered line drawings) of historical pieces of armour that you can find that interest you if you don't have access to you own personal library. Study the pictures and pay particular attention to form and function. Then with photos in hand peruse the different armour manufacture web pages that are out there and compare real life to interpretation.

Things that you will find wrong with reproduction armour are but not limited to, helmets with the bowl too elongated front to back or top to bottom, visors that just don't look right, occularia (eye slots) that are too big, lames that are too large (usually at the knees), breast plates that are too flat, breast plates that are too long (the solid part should end at your navel otherwise you won't be able to bend at the waist, this is a good one to have custom made if you can afford it), greaves that look like rain gutters instead of shaped to the calf, vambraces and cuisses that look the same as the greaves (if you look at period armour it follows the shape of the body so unless your legs and forearms are shaped like pieces of pipe there should be some curvature in those pieces), fluting that was done with a bead roller (you can tell this by the rounded and sometimes deep profile of the fluting, it should have a sharper appearance more like a crease). This is by no means all that I've seen but these are the biggies and you can drive detail down to the shape of the buckles and tanning method used on the leathers.

If all this sounds expensive, it can be depending on your desire for detail. Do not however give up as there are reasonably priced armours out there that look good and can serve well for LH. Some of the ones coming out of the Czech Republic are pretty good but you have to do your research and be selective.

Hope this helps.

I really agree with Bill's statement above in terms of things to look for. As usual, the best thing to do is research (which of course is why you asked the question :) ), and his advice to look at photos of original pieces is spot on.

Of course, as a downside, you won't be content with the things you can afford anymore. ;) That's my problem, anyway.

I've eyed the Armour and Castings suit, and I must say, you really can't beat that price. But I know I couldn't be happy with it... it doesn't look like a period harness to me. The shapes aren't quite right, the fluting looks too bulky. The articulations look like they have a large amount of gap between them. I can see many people being quite content with this, because it really does seem to be quite a bargain. But it just doesn't quite flow right to my eye.

I have a pair of Armour and Castings gauntlets... again, you can't beat the price, but they only okay, but not as great as I keep reading. I went with them because of all the comments making them sound like the greatest things ever created, but I think sometimes people get a little over-enthusiastic in their reviews about new armour, particularly if it was a bargain. I'm not at all complaining about the quality, as I think they really were good for the price, just not what I'd heard.

Armour and Castings had excellent customer service, though, and they were pretty fast on the delivery.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. You have been most helpful.

Now that Mr. Reynolds has mentioned it, I realize in hindsight that I should have also included what I want to be doing with the harness in my initial question.

I would like a harness that I can use for a variety of things including reenactment, stage combat and practicing historical weapons techniques. For these purposes I would like a suit that is as historically accurate as possible and still be able to afford it.

Hopefully this information helps somewhat. I realize that my inexperience has limited my knowledge of how do to all of these things and that as I learn more I will have a better idea of what I want to be doing with a harness.

Thanks... Alex

Hello,

Since my website was mentioned awhile back in the thread, I'd like to say something about the 'gothic' stuff on it. The harness most prominently featured is over 15 years old, the product of my student days, made for $4000 for somebody that wanted lots of pierced work but didn't want to pay for hand forged flutes and ripples. It is, however, the harness that appeared in the Lexus commercial. It's a bit of an embarrasment, really, that I've been intending to replace on the website as soon as someone commissioned another harness, but it never happened. Most perverse, since the late German 'gothic' style has always been my passion since I got into European armour, and the museum research I have done is considerable. Strangely, I mostly get clients who want second half 16th c. harness, which I have little passion for and have not researched nearly as deeply. Recently, I was finally contracted to restore the sabatons to a real harness, and they are, despite the fact that they are utterly plain, by far the best 'gothic' stuff I have done. Doesn't seem to show in flat 2D photos, though.

P.S. I hadn't even SEEN any real armour when I made that 'gothic'. Just pictures in books.

Sorry guys, I feel kind of responsible for this armour. I made the prototype for MRL, with the intent that it would be a way for those who were on a limited budget to be able to have some nice looking, functional armour. I was aware of the fact that 'off the rack' armour will not fit most as well as custom made armour, but I pitched the idea to MRL anyhow, in the hope that they could make some money off it, and buyers could get some affordable armour.

Unfortunately, their armourers in India were not up to the challenge, and they were not able to make the armour as functional as it needs to be. The prototype I made was a properly working harness, everything functioned well, including the gauntlets. The breastplate had the proper globose shape, the paudrons articulated properly, etc. It was the same with the prototype of the Churburg I made for them. I originally made it for Hank, to fit him, which it did. However, I was at MRL when their first copy of my Churburg prototype arrived. We went over the armour, and discovered that the visor could not be raised, the greaves did not fit the bottom lame of the poleyns, the finger plates were not even attached to the gauntlets, among other things. They had to ship the entire armour to me when I got home, and I had to re-work it for them so they could send it back to India and have them make the corrections on the rest of the armour they were producing.

I also told MRL that they needed to offer the armour not only as a complete set, but sell it in it's component parts as well. Not everybody may want to buy the whole thing, but might only want the helmet or gauntlets by themselves. They wouldn't go for the idea with the Churburg armour, but since I made the gothic armour a piece at a time, they decided to sell it's pieces separately. I am currently working on the cuishes (I told them I wouldn't make greaves, because they won't fit most people, but rather offer the entire, 3/4 armour with some appropriate boots). I will also speak to them about re-working the gauntlets so they will work properly, and maybe have a look at the paudrons as well.

In defence of MRL, a $1,500 suit of armour can't be expected to function like a $5,000 or $10,000 suit. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for. Of course, I also realize that if you buy the armour for the purpose of wearing it, and you cannot wear it, then it doesn't matter how cheap it is; it's not worth buying.

It's really hard to maintain any kind of quality control, or have any input when you don't have conact with those who are copying your prototype. Once I hand the armour over to MRL, it's basically out of my hands.

Alexander Ren wrote:

Quote:

I realize that my inexperience has limited my knowledge of how do to all of these things and that as I learn more I will have a better idea of what I want to be doing with a harness.

Nobody pops into existence fully experienced. We all have to start the learning process somewhere and this forum is one of the better places that I've found on the web for learning, there is a wealth of knowledge to be had here. That being said you should never take anyone's advice as gospel (including mine) without doing your own research from primary sources. That is why I suggested that you look at photos of armour, it is about as primary as you will get without holding the actual piece in your hand.

One of the reasons I like this forum is that many of the people who participate here freely give out the source they are basing their statements on so that others may look at it and decide for themselves. You may view their source and come up with a differing opinion or find a point that they missed which makes for some of the more interesting discussions that have been had here.

Peter,
Thanks for chiming in! I appreciate hearing things from the designer's point of view.

I agree that no one should expect expect a $1500 harness to function like a $5000, and quite frankly I think the majority of the harness available is about what to expect for the price. The gauntlets are the only things that I have any major problem, since you can't even hold a sword with them on. I really do hope MRL is able to fix that, as it really is quite a surprise to the buyer.

Well, I'll be travelling down to Atlanta at the end of the month, to deliver the cuishes. What I'll do is propose they allow me to modify their version of the gauntlets so they will work. I might even try to convince them to do a fingered version. I doubt they would be willing to give you your money back, or even make an exchange, but if they go for it, then at least threre will be a functional alternative.

BTW Bill, if you wish, I would be willing to modify your current set so they will work properly, for a nominal fee.