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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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A comparison tool on the Albion site would be a great idea: At the moment one can scroll up 7 down on the Next generation page but if one wants to compare two or more that don't happen to be close it means a lot of scrolling and trying to remember just how long was one when scrolled way down to another.
With the raw material it might be easy ( easier ??? ) to use them for a fast updating of this site's comparison tool.
Nathan: I know that you have had so much to do on this site that updating the comparison tool as much as you might wish has had to be a low priority: So no criticism intended. 
Well I personally think that finding a " small " budget for this would be money well spent by Albion as a sales & educational tool both on their site and on this site.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Comparison Tool |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | ...Nathan: I know that you have had so much to do on this site that updating the comparison tool as much as you might wish has had to be a low priority: So no criticism intended. ... |
Actually, you can lay some of that at my doorstep, Jean. I had volunteered, and started compiling some updated data for Nathan, and had already traded some info with Mike. Alas, work and other issues intervened. 
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 14 Jan, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: |
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I got a good question from Patrick Fitzmartin as a private PM, and asked permission to post it here.
In slightly edited form follows both Q and answer:
| Patrick Fitzmartin wrote: | | Greetings Sir, I have become very interested in this particular sword. Having done some research on it, I realize it is not the sword the would of beheaded St. Maurice and how it wound up with the relics is anybody's guess. I would humbly ask your opinion of this. Just where would you place the origin of this sword? I mean to say possibly Norman, Germanic? I realize I think this style was popular in it's day but a rough guess of national origin would be nice. My profound thanks for your thoughts. By the way, I really like the leather wrap under the axe head trick. I have no more loose axe heads. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin |
Dear Patrick,
The St. Maurice sword in Torino, Italy is a mid 13th C sword. As with many relics it has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual saint, other than clergy at the time found it handy to associate the weapon with the cult of the holy man.
The relics business was thriving and very profiatble for all involved. A good sized cathedral needed a host of relics to attract hosts of pilgrims. All in the name of Father, Son and Holy Profit ;-)
The reason this sword was chosen can only be speculated about, but it makes for *interesting* speculation:-)
I think one reason is that it is a very impressive weapon.
Perhaps it has connections with the Holy Land? Perhaps it was brought back by a crusader and gratefully donated to the church as thanks for safe homecoming? Perhap there was some peronal myth attached to the sword by itīs original owner? Perhaps the church spun a tale on this and elevated it to saintly attribute?
Just personal speculations....
As to its origins, it is difficult to say. I cannot say if the sword was forged in Italy or in germanic areas. There is nothing in the style to suggest either as far as I can tell.
It is obvioulsy well made and express a very warriorlike spirit. It is awe inspiring in its prescense. It is also rather quickly made suggesting it was perhaps made as part of a volume delivery to some customer who is interested in bulk. Perhaps a commander of a unit bound for the Holy Land ordered swords to supply his men at arms? Perhaps a group of swords were oredered to supply a fighting order in the Holy Land?
The leather of the scabbard has things to tell:
The cover of the scabbard is made from two parts of thin calfskin or parchment sewn together: conservation of material was more important than clean aesthetics.
The lower belt that is wrapped around the scabbard is made from a salvaged saddle girth (I should think, judging from the dimension of the belt): there is remains of stitching that has been taken out, and holes for a buckle. This can of course be a later replacement but the leather matches the upper belt end perfectly. I think both belt parts are original and were added at the same time as the scabbard was made. Possibly the scabbard could have been made at some later time as a replacement in during the active life of the sword, but it could equally well have been made at the same time as the sword was originally cutlered.
We can see that the scabbard maker had contact with a saddler, or worked in an arsenal where saddles and bridles were made and given maintenance. Something that speaks of a military order perhaps? (again this is juts suggestive speculation!)
Perhaps further research could shed more light on this, but that would probably demand some analysis of the actual leather and surviving wood: possibly that could provide clues to the origin of those parts (Italy, Germanic area, France, or the Holy Land?)
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sat 14 Jan, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
I found your speculation on the origins of the St. Maurice sword very interesting, but also confusing in one aspect:
| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | ...It is obvioulsy well made and express a very warriorlike spirit. It is awe inspiring in its prescense. It is also rather quickly made.... |
I am having some trouble reconciling your two comments: (a) "...obviously well made...", with (b) "...rather quickly made..." These statements don't seem quite consistent, on the surface. Could you explain this further?
Thanks.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | Peter,
I found your speculation on the origins of the St. Maurice sword very interesting, but also confusing in one aspect:
| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | ...It is obvioulsy well made and express a very warriorlike spirit. It is awe inspiring in its prescense. It is also rather quickly made.... |
I am having some trouble reconciling your two comments: (a) "...obviously well made...", with (b) "...rather quickly made..." These statements don't seem quite consistent, on the surface. Could you explain this further?
Thanks. |
This is something that is very central in the character of medieval swords.
For the most part our idea of aesthetics and finish would be rather ailien for our predecessors in medieval times. To excuse irregularities of ancient wirk with; "well they did the best they could with primitive tools" is not really to the point as the tools they used were very well suited for the work at hand.
In many cases where medieval art has "shortcomings" in finish or detail, it does not really oppose a feeling of skill and awareness in the overall execution of the piece. The character of such work is rather a result of how quickly it was done, rather than any lack of skill or control.
If a craftsman with many years experience works as quickly as he can, the result is going to express a certain type of quality or character.
Medieval swordsmiths would probably have learned their craft from early years: there was no lack in skill or understaning by the mature craftsman.
They were not like contemporary custom makers who made single pieces for collectors who mind finish and style very much and wants a show piece that express high precision in every detail. A contemporary custom swordsmith will have to work for customers who have a modern mindset of how to read quality and who might be used to the levels of precision in the custom knife business (or indeed what is the industry standard for mass produced high products).
A medieval sword very often shows irregularities and less than perfectly executed details. Fullers might wander slightly, edges might snake, guards are less then symmetrical. Still they do not look like they are made in a sloppy way.
You can see that the person who made this object was very expereinced and there is something profoundly effortless and elegant in the overall expression.
It is like calligraphy.
To be a decent calligrapher you need to study letterforms for many years. You need to know them so well that their shaping becomes as natural as breathing. Still, what you write is not beautiful calligraphy untill you can do it at a certain speed. This is called "ductus": the ability to work skillfully and quickly with graceful results.
Then the writing will express energy, power, personality and something of the moment of creation.
You often hear sloppy craftsmanship beign excused by: "Well, itīs supposed to be handmade" or "It is handforged after all"...
This is the complete opposite of what I am trying to explain.
You can strive for perfection in a way that do not focus on superficial detial but the overall. If you *really* know what you are doing, small imperfections will not stand out because your grasp of the overall craft is so complete the sum of everything just express vitality and harmony.
This is the most dificult level of craftsmanship you can strive for.
Such an item does not express a neurotic angst in polish or shaping. There is no nervous fiddling and correcting. To do this every blow and stroke has to count. Everything added to the work, every moment and action of creation will bear witness of a masterful grasp of the craft and a deep understanding of the object.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Peter. I certainly see what you mean, now.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Travis Canaday
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jan, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well put Peter!
I like the calligraphy analogy.
Travis
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Peter
If I'd never seen an example of your work, and all I had to go on to judge it was by the knowledge you've expressed in this thread, I'd have to rate you as a modern day Master ... with the wisdom of ages !
Slāinte, Mac
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