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Chris Lee
Location: Aurora, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: |
I use a regular metal rod of the desired inside diameter with one third of the length bent so it forms an L. They're about $1.00 apiece in any hardware store. A hole is drilled on the longer segment, about ten inches from the end. The wire goes in the hole, I brace the end of the rod on the floor with my leg and I turn it using the shorter L segment as a crank handle with my left hand guiding the wire. With good bolt cutters, I can coil and cut a 100' roll of 14 ga. wire in about two hours.
There's something almost meditative about the work when there are no power tools, but I'm certain it takes longer that way. |
I find (and many on the maile forums agree) that coils are best wound by hand in some sort of rig. It allows one to easily control the wrap and helps avoid errors. Early in my maile efforts I tried using a power drill on my mandril but found it was very difficult to control and I ended up with uneven coils.
That being said, many people are searching for an easier way to cut their coils. I find that cutting by hand is "slow" and sometimes painful (can lead to a repetitive strain injury). It can be difficult to obtain a consistent result with nice even rings. Cutting with some of the rigs shown and talked about here gives a faster yield as well as more consistently shaped rings. I am investigating how I can construct a similar rig myself as it is the cutting that I dislike the most.
Chris
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Dominic Dellavalle
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Chris I certainly have run into the coiling problems you mentioned. I have a hand turned rig that produces wonderful coils and allows you to be very consistent. However I found that when working with certain gauges and ring diameters (14 ga, 1/4" ID) it could be a struggle.
A power drill can certainly alleviate this and is much quicker then hand turning but you can run into issues where the wire skips or overlaps back on itself. Couple of times I ended up catching my own hand in the wire as it coiled back 
I don't have any pics of it, but what I ended up doing was mounting my spool of wire on a galvanized pipe that is bolted to my worktable. The pipe is about 3' long so the spool can move freely along it. Directly in front of the spool is a 2x4 that is just off the worktable surface and just as long as the pipe. By feeding the wire under there first and then to the mandrel it acts like a tensioner and since it is wood (soft material) it doesn't damage the wire. You can then use a power drill to coil the wire. Since the spool is free moving it will work itself along the length of the pipe as the wire coils down the mandrel.
Granted it still snags time to time if the wire on the spool is overlapped, but I can generally coil a 3' mandrel in about 30-45 seconds depending on the drill speed.
If you're really interested in setting up a jig like I posted feel free to send me a PM. I have my notes as well as a link to where I was directed to find the original.
~Dominic
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Chris Lee
Location: Aurora, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jan, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Dominic Dellavalle wrote: |
If you're really interested in setting up a jig like I posted feel free to send me a PM. I have my notes as well as a link to where I was directed to find the original.
~Dominic |
Thanks Dominic,
I have seen rigs like yours posted on other forums and I think I'm going to try something similar.
I do have one question though....it's about the saw blade itself.
You mentioned that it is an HSS Jewelers saw blade and that they are cheap to obtain. I have tried many searchs on the net looking for places that carry blades like this one but have so far been unsuccessful. Where do you get yours from? Are they generally sold only through a jewelers supplier or are they readily available at places like hobby shops (i found many references to straight blades but none for this type of blade).
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance....
Chris
ps: I was going to send a PM asking this question but I thought that there might be others out there that would be interested in the answers. If this was wrong then I apologize.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jan, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Lee wrote: | | You mentioned that it is an HSS Jewelers saw blade and that they are cheap to obtain. I have tried many searchs on the net looking for places that carry blades like this one but have so far been unsuccessful. Where do you get yours from? Are they generally sold only through a jewelers supplier or are they readily available at places like hobby shops (i found many references to straight blades but none for this type of blade). |
I got mine a while back from here:
http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/hss-jewelers-saws.html
At the time, I didn't find a lower price, factoring in cost of blades and shipping. I got 10 blades shipped for something like $30. I still have 7 left... after cutting over a mile of wire. They can break - had one bind up and shatter... They also don't last forever - they will wear out eventually.
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Dominic Dellavalle
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jan, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Aaron beat me to it 
That's the same site I use for my blades, relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain. My rig currently is set up with a 2" diameter, 0.025" thick, 152 wheel. As far as mounting the wheel to a drill goes I ended up going through Grainger's Supply to get the arbor which I believe ran me only a few dollars.
As Aaron already pointed out they can break, bind, shatter, and obviously wear down. As with anything involving power tools, blades or otherwise take precautions. Impact goggles, gloves, etc. I even recomend a dust mask that will handle the dust that is generated cutting. You certainly don't want to be inhaling galvanized steel dust. 3M makes a couple that can handle that type of particulate. Check the blade regularly for any damage, fractures, significant wear or a large number of missing teeth.
If you can try and incorporate some sort of kill switch or on/off switch away from the rig itself, but within arms reach. I simply picked up one of those plugs that have a switch built in. Plug the drill into that, then run an extension to the outlet. You can find them in most hardware stores.
I also suggest at the very least to pick up some wax, paraffin or a plumbers candle works just fine. You can lube the blade between cuts to extend it's life. If I ever finalize this slow oil-drip system that I'm working on (more on paper then built) I'll be happy to share it with you.
I'm sure a lot of this is obvious stuff (probably even repeated from my earlier post) that we're all aware of but my conscious wouldn't feel right if I didn't repeat it here. I sleep better at night this way
~Dominic
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Chris Lee
Location: Aurora, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jan, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys....
I just placed an order for 10 blades.....
Chris
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C. Stackhouse
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: |
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What do you guys normally use for wire?? I have only been using coat hangers, which although work magnificently...yield few links and make more work for me. Is thin round bar used? Or are there large coils of solid steel/iron wire?
My links are 2mm (1/16") thick
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Chris Lee
Location: Aurora, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | What do you guys normally use for wire?? I have only been using coat hangers, which although work magnificently...yield few links and make more work for me. Is thin round bar used? Or are there large coils of solid steel/iron wire?
My links are 2mm (1/16") thick |
While coat hangers are probably a cheap source of wire, I can't imagine they are too easy to work with. The wire gauge seems rather large to me and the wire seems much too stiff for my use.
Recently I have been working with 14 gauge Galvanized steel wire. I usually get in 50ft rolls from my local hadware store or at Canadian Tire. The wire is wraped around a 5/16 steel rod in my hand cranked wrapping rig. I usualy get about 2 1/2 18in coils for each roll.
Yesterday I switched to making my rings from 16g galvanized steel wire, once again wrapped around a 5/16 mandrel. This does yeild rings that are lighter and in addition the coils are much easier to hand cut and the rings weave easily compared to 14g. The trade off will be that armour made from this wire will not be as strong as a thicker wire. I have started looking for a more reliable source for the wire as the hardware store only carries a few rolls at a time. I asked about odering 1000ft roll of 16g and they said they would get back to me about availability and price.
I have also made a few coils of 16g wrapped around 1/4 inch mandrel. This yeilded nice small rings that would be more suited to other applications instead of armour, jewlery etc. I did not make too many as this was just a test to see what the rings would be like and how easy it would be to weave them.
Chris
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C. Stackhouse
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Yes, my links are rather large. It's a fantasy costume piece I'm working on. The rod is about 1cm in diameter. Although not the ideal armor, the effect of the larger rings is great, very visible from a long distance. (good for film too).
I'll look into the thinner wire later on, looks like i have to stick with hangers for now -_-, at least its cheap 
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Dominic Dellavalle
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | What do you guys normally use for wire?? I have only been using coat hangers, which although work magnificently...yield few links and make more work for me. Is thin round bar used? Or are there large coils of solid steel/iron wire?
My links are 2mm (1/16") thick |
It all really depends on just how much wire you need and what your doing. What you don't want to do (speaking from experience) is not have enough wire to finish a project, have to go purhcase more and find out there are variances in the wire. I ended up with a very patchwork looking coif once because of the various shades of galvanizing on the different wires. Plus its just a downright pain to run out of wire mid project.
As far as a wire provider goes you have a few options available to you. The Ring Lord has an enormous selection of wires in various gauges that you can purchase and have put on a spool as well (minimal additional cost). They are based out of Canada and the pricing is relatively good even with the shipping.
I generally use them for some of the wires like brass, copper, or nickel that is hard to find around here in bulk. Now if you are just using galvanized wire (14ga or 16ga) you have several other options that might be easier. One is the hardware stores as Chris mentioned. You can find rolls of galvanized baling wire generally in 50' or 100' lengths.
If you have any large hardware stores in your area (Lowes, Home Depot) go check out where they keep their ceiling tile supplies and you may be able to find large spools of wire there.
The best bet I've had so far was with a local True Value Hardware store I used to work at. They were able to order 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile spools of 14ga galvanized fencing wire from their catalog. It came from their Farm Supplies section so if you also happen to be in an area that has farm suppliers stop by or give them a call. They sell bulk wire as well for running fences. If you do have a True Value in your area let me know, I still have the item numbers I used to order and they are univeral for all stores.
By the way Chris, from experience 16ga 1/4" diameter gives a nice weave when finished. I haven't done a suit of it yet, but have a coif I finished that looks great. I am currently doing a hauberk in 14ga 1/4 and it's definately work. Had to grind dow a pair of pliers specifically for this job so I can get in and close the links. What we put ourselves through for a hobby...
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C. Stackhouse
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Beautiful! Thanks for the into Dominic.
Yeah, I tried that 2mm wire with 1/4" links too.  The hangers i used then were softer but had white paint on them. With the paint still on I couldn't actually weave the links. (thats how tight the weave was)
And I have a farm supply store in my city, I'll go check it out.
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Chris Lee
Location: Aurora, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jan, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Dominic,
You just bailed me out again....
I just placed an order with The Ring Lord for 30lbs (about 2700ft) of 16g galvanized wire.
You were right, even with the currency conversion, and shipping, the price was still better than my local hardware shop.
I will also try at my local Home Depot in the department you mentioned (never thought to look there). They do carry some small heavily overpriced quantities in the rope and wire department so I never purchased any wire there.
The HSS saw blades I ordered should arrive today (UPS tried to deliver them yesterday but I was at work). It looks as if I'll be having a interesting weekend setting up my cutting rig. I'll post photo's of it when I get it all working.
I also reworked my coiling rig. I now have the option to wind using a cordless drill. For safety, I use a 7.2v cordless(low power) and set the adjustable torque clutch to just enough to wind the wire. That way if anything catches in the coil, such as my fingers, the drill does not have enough torque to turn. In addition I replaced the wooden tensioning bar with a 3/8 steel rod allowing the wire to glide easily over the bar. The whole set up works like a charm and I was able to produce several really nice coils this way. I think the quality of my maile is going to rise nicely.
Thanks again for all your tips.
Chris
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Shawn Shaw
Location: Boston, MA USA Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: |
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I've been wondering for a while....how did they make maille 1000 years ago?
For starters, it seems like drawing down lenghts of wire would be very difficult to do via hammer and forge. Also, cutting the rings would also be tough, I would think.
Anybody have any idea how they used to do it?
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Dominic Dellavalle
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jan, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Shawn Shaw wrote: | I've been wondering for a while....how did they make maille 1000 years ago?
For starters, it seems like drawing down lenghts of wire would be very difficult to do via hammer and forge. Also, cutting the rings would also be tough, I would think.
Anybody have any idea how they used to do it? |
With an awful lot of patience would be my answer to start. While many of us still work with maille in a fashion akin to medieval armorers we have the luxury of using power tools, high quality cutters, etc that our predecessors did not.
Like so many topics there is always debate as to how tasks were done. Most people I've spoken with believe that the wire used in maiking maille was drawn. I believe in Eric Price's Techniques of Medieval Armor Reproduction 14th Century you can find an illustration of a smith sitting on a stool and using a large set of pliers to pull wire through a drawplate. Some others have made the case for wire being created by cutting thin strips off of sheets of metal. I have not had much luck thus far with finding additional information on this process.
Once this was done the wire was spun onto a mandrel much like most people still do today. A rod with a bend on one end to act as a handle would be turned while wire was fed onto it, thus producing a coil.
As for cutting the rings off the coil I've heard of two methods. One is using a set of cutters, or snips, like many modern maille makers use. The other method utilized a hammer and cold chisel. The smith would just work his way down the length of the coil (while still on the mandrel) and just cut through the rings that way.
Once the rings were cut many smiths would anneal them by simply throwing a batch of rings into a forge until they got red hot. At this point they were removed and allowed to air dry.
Rings were then layed out and with the use of pliers overlapped. Once overlapped a smith would then flatten them. There is debate (again) as to how this process was accompolished. Some historians believe specific tools were designed to flatten rings, while many others simply believe that a good hammer and anvil were all that was needed. It is quite possible both are correct with the hammer and anvil process being utilized until such time as tools were created to reduce the amount of labor.
With flattened rings in hand the armorer would then punch the overlap clean through to prep for riveting. A punch and good hammer was all that was needed to accompolish this task. It's also noteworthy that the when anyone says "punch" they do not mean a round hole as many of us would initially visualize. The hole produced was more of a slit shape.
Finally with all this work done the armorer could now rivet the ring. A small triangular piece of metal was hammered through the previously made punch until it wedged itself in place. The tip of the triangle on the thru side was then peened over to finish the process.
Given the amount of labor involved one can begin to see why the idea of using alternating rows of riveted rings and solid punched rings is so appealing
Of course keep in mind the above is just a quick overview of the process. I know that there is certainly a ton more information on the process that could not be easily posted here.
Hope this is a helpful start
~Dominic
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This is a standard topic