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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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 Posted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Oh, the horse in the pic does look in distress or at least NOT happy ? |
Yes, but think how many shots are cut out of a politician at exactly the wrong moment. You can videotape one you don't like, and cut out an imagine where they look bad, and put in on mud slinging ads. My question isn't 'is the horse not happy at that instant?' but rather 'was it not happy the entirety of the time before and after that moment was frozen in time?'
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Oh, the horse in the pic does look in distress or at least NOT happy ? |
Yes, but think how many shots are cut out of a politician at exactly the wrong moment. |
Then what is the right context for a horse frightened out of its wits by pain and not beinig able to avoid it?! Making a film for amusement?
The foto was taken and is real. Don't butter it up. There simply is no excuse for it unless the guy was attacked by an escaped lion but somehow I doubt that.
btw, Dom Duarte, portuges king who fought the REAL moors A LOT in 1438 wrote a treatise on horsriding advocates a soft hand.
There is no need to develope special tack as that already exists and can be quite easily disguised with appropiate shanks.
I designed and made a spanish vaquera headstall based on the Dr.Cooke BitlessBridle that was never ever recognised as different on any of the ferias and fiëstas. This type of headstall is still 'friendly' on the horse in the hands of the most clumsy (re)enactor.
HC
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Peter Bosman"] | George Hill wrote: |
Then what is the right context for a horse frightened out of its wits by pain and not beinig able to avoid it?! Making a film for amusement? |
I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying that I not willing to condemn an entire production over a single photo which may or may not mean what it 'looks' like it means, because whilst I know only a little about horses, I know rather more about the potentially misleading results of camera action at exactly the wrong moment and angle.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: |
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[quote="George Hill"] | Peter Bosman wrote: | | George Hill wrote: |
Then what is the right context for a horse frightened out of its wits by pain and not being able to avoid it?! Making a film for amusement? |
I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying that I not willing to condemn an entire production over a single photo which may or may not mean what it 'looks' like it means, because whilst I know only a little about horses, I know rather more about the potentially misleading results of camera action at exactly the wrong moment and angle. |
If whoever owns the horses or is the person in charge of their wellbeing took some serious corrective action and this was a very early production shot and not typical of the way the horse " seems " to have been treated them maybe the whole production shouldn't be condemned ? If the perceptions is correct and " is " typical of the way all the horses were really treated then maybe the SPCA or whatever organization regulates the use of animals in films should ask some pointed questions.  ( Or pointed in that direction if we can find the right regulating body ! )
Having done more that a little photography I also know that one can get almost any facial expression on a human if one times the shot to make the subject looked stupid or scared ....... etc ... ( Again, with horses I'm not an expert on their body language and someone who is may have good reasons to be upset ! ) ( Peter I don't think we are disagreeing at all and like George I don't want to rush to judgement but it is a disturbing picture needing context ).
Getting back to the movie itself it does look interesting in spite of the maybe " wool " maille.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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The thing about horses is, that they do not 'ly'.
What is shown in the foto may or may not be typical for this film. It is however not uncommon at all in horseriding. The problem with portraying it is that it becomes a reference of normal.
The ridiculously overbent neck of horses in dressage is a perfect example of this. An overbent horse cannot breath properly nor see more than its own feet. It is thé way to make a horse dependant on the rider. It is both unhealty and not at all good horsemanship. The general public and thus the rider has this as a reference from looking at statues p.e. and slowly but sure this has even crept into dressage regulations where the lastes change allows a hors to be overbent behind the vertical!!!!!!!!!!
So I am not too worried about this one picture of this one horse in this one motion picture. The real issue is that most readers on this forum have no idea of how a happy horse shoúld look since how cán they?! and will develop the wrong idea because thát is what they see. Yes this ís of paramount importance as 'the people' are the ones who's children will start riding horses and 'the people' are the ones with the public opinion.
Why put emphasis on being historically accurate? Same thing but far less important is it not.
Obviously one cannot compare a scene being shot with the way I ride and thus my horses are no valid expamples but do look at the horses Gordon rides p.e. They too have a bit, they too are in an re-enactment situation.
Peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Is a happy horse with full attention to the 5-year old rider. Not at all historically correct for any crusader and not at all a thing of 'beauty' in most eyes and exactly thát is the crux. It should be 
Peter
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: |
Is a happy horse with full attention to the 5-year old rider. Not at all historically correct for any crusader and not at all a thing of 'beauty' in most eyes and exactly thát is the crux. It should be
Peter |
Nice picture and the above and the previous post gives a lot of useful information I didn't know about. 
Just in case you interpreted my mentioning historical accuracy as a standard that has to be a priority, I did say it should be " faked " when the period accuracy would mean cruelty inflicted on the horses and you did confirm that harsh looking equipment can be made benign.
In other words, I don't think historical accuracy should be pushed to ridiculous degrees: Like using real arrows with full power bows in reinactments etc ..... just as an example away from the one involving horses we are discussing above.
I'm not a reinactor and my personal standards for historical accuracy with my swords or armour are much looser so I can't really speak for them ! But, I think it's safe to assume that most would agree that there are limits that can't be crossed. 
( Just making sure that my words are not interpreted incorrectly as negative and that no offence is intended  )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just in case you interpreted my mentioning historical accuracy as a standard that has to be a priority, I did say it should be " faked " when the period accuracy would mean cruelty inflicted on the horses and you did confirm that harsh looking equipment can be made benign.
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Oh, I get is allright Jean.
The thing is you can ask an actrice to fake not liking a fake rape. You cannot have a horse fake the picture we saw.
Yes you could do a lot with nifty photography but.... this is not the case nor should one do that for the same reason it is better not to portray rape as common and 'normal', even institutionalised, as it then was.
HC
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Rod Walker
Location: NSW, Australia. Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Could I also point out that the majority of bits used in period for both riding horses and warhorses were just plain snaffles or simple curbs. It is a bit of a myth that "medieval" bits are horrible instrument of torture and pain. It makes no sense to have, in battle, a horse that your life depends on driven mad by a severe bit.
Likewise, there is a very good reasons Gothic spurs are as long as they are, why large rowells are used etc, and it has nothing to do with causing the horse pain. You accomplish nothing by causing a horse pain and fear of you, the rider .
Now, I am not going to condemn this movie from that one still. You will see worse in any number of films with horses, at races, steeplechases, campdrafts, Polo games, ponyclubs, trail rides etc.
Occasionally stuff happens. I really don't think the actor meant to cause the horse any discomfort, I don't think the wrangler meant to cause the horse any discomfort. I think it is a bad combination of equipment, that's all.
Cheers
Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au
"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just in case you interpreted my mentioning historical accuracy as a standard that has to be a priority, I did say it should be " faked " when the period accuracy would mean cruelty inflicted on the horses and you did confirm that harsh looking equipment can be made benign.
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Oh, I get is allright Jean.
The thing is you can ask an actrice to fake not liking a fake rape. You cannot have a horse fake the picture we saw.
Yes you could do a lot with nifty photography but.... this is not the case nor should one do that for the same reason it is better not to portray rape as common and 'normal', even institutionalised, as it then was.
HC |
I'll concede 100% then that the discomfort of the horse was real. Call my posts playing devils advocate giving alternate theories that you have effectively rebutted and given some of us new information.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Walker wrote: | | You will see worse in any number of films with horses, at races, steeplechases, campdrafts, Polo games, ponyclubs, trail rides etc. |
Exactly my point and you should not.
Do you still see many actors smoking, calling on their handy whilst driving or not using their safety belt as the norm in movies? Now I am nót implying that you can only make politically correct movies. I ám implying that movies are not only about entertainment.
@Jean. Take a look at my website http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/ if you like to read some more info on horses.
HC
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Walker wrote: | | ... Now, I am not going to condemn this movie from that one still. ... Occasionally stuff happens. I really don't think the actor meant to cause the horse any discomfort, I don't think the wrangler meant to cause the horse any discomfort. I think it is a bad combination of equipment, that's all. |
I have not ridden a horse in over 20 years, and I am no expert. However, once we get away from our focus on the arms and armor (difficult for us on this site), the discomfort of the horse is evident. For what it is worth, It occurs to me that, while that is just one still photo, someone deliberately chose that particular shot to release for a publicity still. Also, someone deliberately chose that combination of equipment....
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 07 Mar, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Which only strengthens my point that somebody who can manage to start large-scale commercial production of period-looking but safe gear would find it a very profitable venture indeed . . . .
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Jeff Hughes
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| Posted: Fri 09 Mar, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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i am no expert on horses either but this was a production release picture. most like cut from a whole scene. not just a single still. and i think the point was that use of the bit and Standing Martingale forces discomfort on the horse. you can see in the photo the reins and the Standing Martingale a pulled tuant. the horse is distressed pulling up and away to the left. which seems correct since in the pict the reins seem slacker on that side. and use of the Standing Martingale meant anytime the horse suffered pain he was forced to endure it for the shot. i'm not one for animals. but this would be like having a searing itch and someone holding hands so you cant scratch it. and that is being nice.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 09 Mar, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Folks,
How animals are or aren't treated is not really on topic for this site. Let's not continue down this road, please.
Thanks! 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Fri 09 Mar, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Nice blade!
Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Shamsi Modarai
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| Posted: Sat 10 Mar, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but could someone maybe explain the plot/ premise of this movie?
Wa bið þam þe sceal of langoþe leofes abidan.
~ The Wife's Lament
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Thomas Sundquist-Nilsson
Location: Stockholm; Sweden Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat 10 Mar, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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A young noble grows up in a monestary and being trained by a former Knights templar. When he´s grown up he has sex with his beloved and is excommunicated for that. Sends to Outremer as a Knight templar to serve for 20 years.
During his service he fights several battles, win some (Mont Gisard) and loose some (Hattin) and gets to known Salahdin.
When he comes home he recruit and trains young boys to be heavy cavalry and saves Sweden from the Danes.
Oh... he also invents the Microwave oven. 
Molon Labe.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sat 10 Mar, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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A Templar surviving the Battle of Hattin? I thought that, except for the Grand Master, all Templars left alive after the battle were executed by Saladin.
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Thomas Sundquist-Nilsson
Location: Stockholm; Sweden Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat 10 Mar, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Spoilerwarning!! |
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He gets spared because of his friendship with Salahdin.
Molon Labe.
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This is a standard topic