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Marcos Cantu
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 Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | The ever lasting debate of japanese vs western swords can be ended with, "What is it you need your sword to do?"
Japanese swords were generally used against lightly armoured or unarmoured soldiers, therefore they needed to be light and good at quick sweeping cuts. Whereas european swords were generally coming into contact with heavier armour, especially in the case of other knights and would need to be slightly sturdier with a greater potential for crushing impacts and still be usable if marred. When two samurai clashed they were trained to attack the vulnerable areas of the joints and neck (especially the armpits) because a direct hit into any plated area could cause the blade to be nicked, chipped or damaged and thus severely reducing it's effectiveness in battle.
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But how would a European swords blade have held up with a direct hit to plate armor?
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C. Stackhouse
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 10:05 am Post subject: |
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This undoubtedly happened. A European sword would chip and mar, yet due to it's construction it would still be effective as a cleaver/clubber. Also unlike the katana which for most attacks only uses the first six inches of blade, the entirety of a european sword is a weapon. You can slash with the blade, bash with the pommel and punch with the cross guard. I would also imagine European swords were built to be more resistant against such damage, ie. being double edged and considerably wider than a katana.
It may not be pretty, but hilt bashing your way out of a war will still get you home alive.
Above all else, be armed
-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | This undoubtedly happened. A European sword would chip and mar, yet due to it's construction it would still be effective as a cleaver/clubber. Also unlike the katana which for most attacks only uses the first six inches of blade, the entirety of a european sword is a weapon. You can slash with the blade, bash with the pommel and punch with the cross guard. I would also imagine European swords were built to be more resistant against such damage, ie. being double edged and considerably wider than a katana.
It may not be pretty, but hilt bashing your way out of a war will still get you home alive. |
A sword is not club and it's not to be used as one (except the fancy Mortschlag techniques). Of course WMA includes hilt and pommel-strikes, but If I remember correctly JSA does so as well.
I guess a longsword won't break or bend when used against chain-maille (neither will a Katana). When it comes to plate-armour the outcome may be different, but swords were probably designed to hold their ground against plate armour, so they won't chip or bend after the first strike. Swords can bend, break or chip, but I don't think hitting plate armour will do much damage to a well-made sword. A sword like the Svante (Albion) with it's thick spine will probably take a lot of punishement before getting useless in a fight.
Of course I could be wrong on all this, so if someone has more detailed information regarding this issue, please feel free to correct me. 
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Margaret Lo
Location: Princeton, NJ Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: Do what's necessary |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | This undoubtedly happened. A European sword would chip and mar, yet due to it's construction it would still be effective as a cleaver/clubber. Also unlike the katana which for most attacks only uses the first six inches of blade, the entirety of a european sword is a weapon. You can slash with the blade, bash with the pommel and punch with the cross guard. I would also imagine European swords were built to be more resistant against such damage, ie. being double edged and considerably wider than a katana.
It may not be pretty, but hilt bashing your way out of a war will still get you home alive. |
I was told by my instructor that the katana's best cutting occurrs in the last 6 inches, but that the whole blade is used to cut, else why make it all sharp? I have seen techniques utilizing lower edges. In any event, if you are fighting for your life, surely you'd use a chipped katana as a club or less effective sword, just as you would a European sword? Heck, I'd use a ham sandwich if that was all I had.
M
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C. Stackhouse
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Do what's necessary |
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| Margaret Lo wrote: |
I was told by my instructor that the katana's best cutting occurrs in the last 6 inches,
M |
That's what I meant, I was in school while writing this, and quite tired  . I know that the entire blade was used to attack, but ideally you want to attack using the last six inches of the blade, thus generating the best possible cuts.
And Wolfgang, by club I simply mean hitting someone with a dull bladed sword.
Above all else, be armed
-Niccolo Machiavelli
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John Marciano
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Weapon craft, Japan VS The rest of the world! |
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| Margaret Lo wrote: |
The myth of the supernatural katana will remain alive thanks not only to anime and movies, but thanks to the simple fact that its critical supporting culture is very much alive. Two weeks ago, I visited a training session of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu in NYC. This is a 400 year old school that originated with the swordmaster for Iyesu Tokugawa. Its theory and practice are documented and intact and regularly taught. Its current headmaster is a banker by trade who visits the US on occasion. ... Not only has this school retained physical technique, it has retained combat strategy which it does not share except with very senior students. ... When you see the attitudes and listen to the discussion of technique, you realize its vitality and legitimacy.
M |
What is interesting is how the differences in culture between East and West are so evident even today. The Eastern precepts of tradition, honor, and culture are prevalent in the ancient, but still very much alive, koryu. Westerners, ever the promoters of discovery and innovation had to recreate their ancient fighting arts because they largely practice modern fighting arts. They set up modern schools like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch form modern 'ryu' like the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA). Different cultures.
John
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Marcos Cantu wrote: | | But how would a European swords blade have held up with a direct hit to plate armor? |
It's no coincidence that warhammers, axes, maces, etc. grew in popularity as plate did. A sword would likely not have been the first choice against plate. Impact weapons would be far better in may instances.
There are incidents where swords are said to have pierced armour, though. Also, some cross-sections lend themselves better to edges that can withstand those impacts (ie. more chisel-like).
| C. Stackhouse wrote: | | I would also imagine European swords were built to be more resistant against such damage, ie. being double edged and considerably wider than a katana. |
Not all were double-edged. Not all were wide throughout their whole length. Some were narrow and thick (estocs and some Type XVII swords). Some started out wide and tapered radically, ending up thin (many Type XV's, XVII's). That's what makes these comparison questions so hard to really answer. What type/era of Euro sword are you comparing to what type/era of katana? There are so many variations even within a given timeframe that these comparison are very difficult.
The bottom line is that the katana and the swordsmanship style it is used in developed in response to the circumstances it was made in and for the situations it would have faced. Ditto with Euro weapons.
Both evolved to meet changing needs. If I recall, katana from different periods might be more or less robust, depending on the defenses of the day. But it's been a looooong time since I've read about katana.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| C. Stackhouse wrote: | This undoubtedly happened. A European sword would chip and mar, yet due to it's construction it would still be effective as a cleaver/clubber. Also unlike the katana which for most attacks only uses the first six inches of blade, the entirety of a european sword is a weapon. You can slash with the blade, bash with the pommel and punch with the cross guard. I would also imagine European swords were built to be more resistant against such damage, ie. being double edged and considerably wider than a katana.
It may not be pretty, but hilt bashing your way out of a war will still get you home alive. |
What happens is going to be a bit more complex than "chip and mar".
The edge can roll instead of chip.
Glancing on a smooth surface may result in no damage, just a deflection.
A crappy tool, or one with a previously introduced structural weakness, may experience catastrophic failure.
Probably would be better to answer this question as "Well it depends...."
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Hank Reinhardt
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: katana |
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As some of you may, or may not, know, I am writing a book on swords. Not the history, although I have to add some, but on the properties of swords,.why they cut, how they cut, how they were used, etc. I have just finished the section on the katana, and although there are a lot of comments I want to make, I don't want to write the whole chapter again.
Japanese Katantas are beautiful. They are polished with stones. This allows the grain of the steel to be seen clearly. European swords were all polished in a manner that "smeared" the sureface of the steel. The workmanship on the old swords is simply excellent. Europeans were never quite devoted to the fine detail that you will find on katanas. How good are is the katana as a sword. It is perfectly designed for the style of fighting in which it was used. As to which came first, style or sword, no one can actually say for sure. It has been hyped to an unbelievable amount. Just as the Samura has been hyped to an unbelieveable amount. Until the 14th century the primary weapon of the Samurai was the bow. After the Japanese had been scared witless by the Mongols, and the fighting moved from the plains areas to the mountains, the yari and the naginata became the primary weapon. One would rely on the sword only after the primary weapon was lost.
In the 11th-12th century a katana was developed that was tempered to a hard spring. These were considered excellent swords. Only one maker did it this way. No matter that they say, the sword is made from steel, and the best steel in the world has it limitations. I t will not cut a machine gun barrel in half, nor will it cut through rock or concrete.
The sword has been valued at most places and times because you could carry it with you. Same as the handgun. The handgun is not as good as a rifle, nor is the sword as good as a spear. But they both can be with you all of the time. (Curiously enough, the most warlike of the Europeans, the Romans,showed no particulary reverence for the sword. Didn't go around naming them or giving them personalities. Just a damn good tool for killling folks).
Hank Reinhardt
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hank;
Looking forward to that book.  Any ballpark date for it to be available ? Oh, please don't feel rushed by the question I realize it could be months or even years.  
Oh, any other things currently available from you Videos or DVDs ? I seem to remember something available from Paladin Press that was advertised in the " Blade " magazine.
DVDs are just more convenient: Not all of that FWR / REW stuff.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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