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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Who likes Kettle Hats & How popular were they ? Reply to topic
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Jeff Johnson





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK, O've got that off my chest! Wink Thanks for listening!

Really, though, it's not much harder, Jean, to have a more authentic buckle on your helmet, or to have somebody making something for you do it a liiitle bit different. It's the little things like having the right buckle, or the right shape to your sword blade that make a big difference and turn a set of gear from good to bad.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff;

Point taken, no problem with giving better or more accurate information or correcting an error.

I don't think I am an expert or meant to give that impression when it comes to authentic armour and your giving alternate information is a good thing to do as I do want Jim to have all the information that might help him.

Quote Jeff said: " Regarding choice - I'm not sure what you mean by "choosing levels of authenticity from ignorance".

Oh, I just mean that with more knowledge one can choose a level of authenticity: And I guess I expressed myself badly!
To choose one must first know what is considered at this time historically accurate gear: One can then decide to be strict about it or not. In a Sci. Fi. or Lord of the Rings contexts the question of accuracy is irrelevant. ( My fantasy life might be different than your fantasy life. ) Now if one's goal is to represent a period of history as accurately as possible that is a very demanding and good thing to do. But unless we have a time machine some things are going to be best guesses until better information is found. And, personally, I may well make wrong choices out of ignorance rather than informed choice.

As to the liners I mentioned I have some cheap / inexpensive helms that came without liners and at the very least these liners were, for me, a convenient way to make them wearable.

I encourage Jim to do more research to see what other vendors use for liners and to check out various living history groups for advice.

Might be a good idea to get back to the subject of kettle hats themselves or split this subject to another topic about liners and what is good, bad, period or not period.

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff Johnson wrote:
OK, O've got that off my chest! Wink Thanks for listening!

Really, though, it's not much harder, Jean, to have a more authentic buckle on your helmet, or to have somebody making something for you do it a liiitle bit different. It's the little things like having the right buckle, or the right shape to your sword blade that make a big difference and turn a set of gear from good to bad.


Jeff,

More people would be listening if your tone was more educational and less confrontational.

Food for thought.

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff Johnson wrote:
[/rant]

Jeff, don't use my site for your personal rants again. Your information is welcome. I absolutely want it here. But don't present it the way you're doing. The fact that you feel compelled to make it into a rant of frustration or personal crusade is simply not welcome. Give good info. Disagree with others. Ask for citing and references. Present your own. All of these things I encourage. But do them in a professional manner without ranting, attacking, or belittling. It's just part of being professional and respectful. I assure you that disagreement, the offering of differing opinions, and the pointing out of incorrect facts and other statements is all possible in a professional way. Contact me via Private Message if you want to discuss this further. Back on track now.

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to Jeff for the link to the Leeds helm liner. I am another one of those guys who has several helms without any liner whatsoever, so the interior of a period helm is definitely of interest.

Jeff Johnson wrote:
…I said "form of" suspension liner, because it appears the liner was in both cases quartered…
Jeff, by ‘quartered’, do you mean that the linen liner had a shape similar to that of the Mercenaries Tailor leather liner, i.e., triangular peaks above the circumferential head band? I don’t know what is historically correct and what is not, but it seems to me that using leather to form this suspension would be more durable than using linen. Though using linen for padding inside of the circumferential leather band (as well as at the quarters) makes good sense to me.

Jeff Johnson wrote:
…The liner appeared to be readily-removable by cutting stitches around the edge - except for the inexplicable (later additions?) rivet at the front.
I see the single ‘rivet at the front’ in the photo. However, the shape of the liner seems (to my unpracticed eye) that it may also have rivets in the other corners, but the view of those other (possible) rivets is obscured by the liner material. Are you in a position to say, for certain, whether there are or are not additional rivets securing the linen liner in the Leeds example? (Of course, such other rivets, if they exist, could also be 'later additions'.) It does make sense to me that one would want this linen liner to be easily replaceable, and that stitching would work better in this regard than riveting.

I also tend (as an engineer, not an historian!) to agree to a certain extent with the following comment from Jean:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
…I could be very wrong here, but a suspension like this doesn't work by being a thick pad between your skull and the metal sides of the helm: What it does is keep your head well away from the helm and as long as the shape of the helm does not cave in due to a blow the liner keeps direct transmission of impact energy from helm wall to skull bones.
The head still ends up absorbing the energy in total but it is spread out over the whole and not concentrated at one point. I don't think these suspensions work due to the thickness of the padding at all....
I think that the function of a pad is two-fold: (1) to keep the head away from the metal surface of the helm, as Jean said; and, (2) to also dampen the transmission of force from helm to skull. Making padding too dense could detract from the 2nd function.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
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Jeff Johnson





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PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry about the tone. I feel strongly about people presenting what I see as mis-information as fact. I've been burned by such and hate to see it happening to others. Additionally, I work in an environment where correcting those who error in an assertive manner is common practice. "You will fix this problem, you will fix it this way, and you will fix it now!" Unfortunately, some of that manner occasionally carries over to other writings.

Continuing with the (off)topic:

Quote:
Jeff, by ‘quartered’, do you mean that the linen liner had a shape similar to that of the Mercenaries Tailor leather liner, i.e., triangular peaks above the circumferential head band?


Yes, it appears that there are 4 segments in this fragment, and it seems to make sense structurally and for ease of construction. However, the historic item's sections seem to cover a large portion of the head's surface, providing more comfortable fit than added-on triangles. I've worn lots of helmets and the most comfortable after a long period of time are those which have the greatest uniform contact area with the head.

Quote:
I don’t know what is historically correct and what is not, but it seems to me that using leather to form this suspension would be more durable than using linen. Though using linen for padding inside of the circumferential leather band (as well as at the quarters) makes good sense to me.


I believe leather is a weaker material (in tension) than most fibers, especially linen, which has long fibers. Experience tells me that I can break an 1/8 leather lace by hand with ease (moreso when wet), but can't break a comparable linen cord. So, I think linen is far stronger. Looking it up online, I found Leather has a tensile strength of 2,000-6,000 PSI. I couldn't find a comparable quantified value for linen, but I found on an official site on linen: "has the greatest tensile strength of any natural fiber, and is 20% stronger when wet. It is highly absorbent and dries quickly, and its high wax content gives it linen's characteristic luster. It is also long lasting. If not exposed to synthetic bleaches or mechanical drying, a regularly-used linen sheet can survive for a century or more." [url]http://www.nps.gov/colo/Jthanout/FlaxProd.html [/url] All of these are great qualifiers for linen as a helmet padding material. The durability factor has me thinking that perhaps removing the liner is in-necessary, which makes the rivet I marked "inexplicable" less so. It could be that there are fivets through the lining, but I'd certainly not want one in contact with my noggin!

Quote:

I also tend (as an engineer, not an historian!) to agree to a certain extent with the following comment from Jean:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
…I could be very wrong here, but a suspension like this doesn't work by being a thick pad between your skull and the metal sides of the helm: What it does is keep your head well away from the helm and as long as the shape of the helm does not cave in due to a blow the liner keeps direct transmission of impact energy from helm wall to skull bones.
The head still ends up absorbing the energy in total but it is spread out over the whole and not concentrated at one point. I don't think these suspensions work due to the thickness of the padding at all....
I think that the function of a pad is two-fold: (1) to keep the head away from the metal surface of the helm, as Jean said; and, (2) to also dampen the transmission of force from helm to skull. Making padding too dense could detract from the 2nd function.


Disagree (also as an engineer) Wink with part of Jean's suspension point. Yes, if you get hit on the top of the head, a suspension lining might spread the blow, But should a blow come to the side of the helm, (as I presume is more likely) an unpadded, suspended helm may move to (effectively) direct contact with the skull and transfer the energy of the blow. The liner needs to attenuate and spread that energy, and an unpadded liner doesn't do that well. Now, modern helmet liners, which have a series of straps (or such) between the helm inner surface and the liner do do that.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For serious work I think Jeff has a good point that a suspension system might be insufficient to absorb a lateral blow.

For just costume wear it's not critical but since most would want " functional " equipment and probably prefer it historical, lateral padding would be essential.

Although if worn with a " Linen arming cap " and coif the suspension would not be the only thing absorbing the blow.

If we had a totally 100% certain historically authentic suspension or padding system to do modern crash dummy tests we might find that it worked as well as anything modern we might make today using space age materials or we might find design flaws that could be improved on ! Not taking any bets what the results would be.

Interesting info about linen: I don't know much about textiles and their qualities.


Oh, just something I was thinking about today: Most here are at least interested in history, but for some history is the main motivating factor to their collecting, reading, re-enacting; so it make sense that for them historical accuracy comes first in their order of priorities.

In my case I have always been fascinated by weapons of all types or all times with my focus changing from Ancient times to Modern, Medieval and back again. The interest in the weapons themselves lead to learning about history and specifically military history. But since my interest is first in weapons and weapon design and use I can be as interested in a well designed fantasy weapon as in an authentic copy of an historical weapon.
This mean that having every detail right historically is lower in my list of priorities. As I spend more time here and as I learn more the historical subtleties that would have gone strait over my head become more important to me.

For someone coming here with a focus more on martial art, equipment that does the job might come first before being strictly historical correct: At least initially.

In conclusion, some unfortunate misunderstandings can be because goals are different, and people may talk at cross purposes to each other. Also with wide differences of knowledge, experience it is unavoidable that we will make mistakes when venturing opinions on areas where we have less knowledge: So when others disagree and bring forth good arguments or facts supported by research the least we can do is have an open mind. This doesn't mean accepting stuff as gospel, but it does mean not rejecting an idea because nobody enjoys being wrong.

But if we don't risk being wrong we won't be asking very many questions in the future. Worried Laughing Out Loud

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, here is an example of the way I see things when I design something:

An example is my Langue de Boeuf: I did base it on a drawing I saw that may or may not be historically accurate. Some research does show some similar ones historically, but once I finished making my own design drawing of what I believe would be an fearsome weapon I would not change it if someone could prove that it wasn't historically valid ! In that case it becomes my " Klingon Langue de Boeuf " or my " Lord of the Rings Langue de Boeuf ".

So this wouldn't work for someone making something for a living history group but then I'm having it made for myself.

I can see this topic thread could be split into:

1 ) The original Kettle Hat topic.

2 ) The liner question.

3) The approach / importance of historical accuracy as a priority for some or less so for others. ( My highjacking of my own Kettle hat topic. Eek! Laughing Out Loud )

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff Johnson wrote:
...Leather has a tensile strength of 2,000-6,000 PSI. I couldn't find a comparable quantified value for linen, but I found on an official site on linen: "has the greatest tensile strength of any natural fiber, and is 20% stronger when wet. It is highly absorbent and dries quickly, and its high wax content gives it linen's characteristic luster. It is also long lasting. If not exposed to synthetic bleaches or mechanical drying, a regularly-used linen sheet can survive for a century or more."
Hmmm - interesting comparison. I'll be there are some good data on linen somewhere.

Quote:
The durability factor has me thinking that perhaps removing the liner is in-necessary, which makes the rivet I marked "inexplicable" less so.
Of course, the liner will eventually become yucky gross, even if not damaged. I would certainly want to take it out and clean or replace. Of course, personal hygene practices are a little different today from those in medieval times (thank goodness).

Quote:
Disagree (also as an engineer) Wink with part of Jean's suspension point. Yes, if you get hit on the top of the head, a suspension lining might spread the blow, But should a blow come to the side of the helm, (as I presume is more likely) an unpadded, suspended helm may move to (effectively) direct contact with the skull and transfer the energy of the blow. The liner needs to attenuate and spread that energy, and an unpadded liner doesn't do that well...
Yup. That is why I said "...using linen for padding inside of the circumferential leather band (as well as at the quarters) makes good sense to me."
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ok heres 1 point. i have 2 helmets with 2 different helmet liners. 1 has a leather band with a quartered linen paddedd enterier sewn to it. the other is a leather band sewed to a leather sustenction liner that i wear a padded coif with along with a coif.

form 1st hand experience. the quilted linen liner is much more comfortable and obsorbs the blows better. the leather suspension liner does not move well and hurts the forhead after exdended wear.

now take this i fight both wooden waster and steel combat (pulled blows but somewhat compatitional)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck;

Thanks for the practical approach. Cool

Maybe one could compare it to buying two pairs of shoes that both feel O.K. in the store but after wearing both pairs each for a few days, one pair still feels comfortable and the other has given you blisters. Eek!

Over thousands of years and different cultures I expect that many different types of liners may have been tried: Some more successful than others and some different designs being close if not equal in effectiveness / comfort.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, I don't mind the side trip into liners as this is sort of normal for most topics to drift away from the original topic and usually the discussion is as interesting as what the original topic was about.

BUT, it's good to get back to the original subject after the the side topic has sort of calmed down. Big Grin

To get back to kettle hats, can some Bronze age helms be considered in the same family: Greek or Gaulish.

I mentioned helms from the time of Charlemagne that really do look a lot like Morions.

After Charlemagne I think we see kettle hats starting around 1200 or so: Well the gaps may only be in the documented examples in artwork or surviving helms.

By the 14th century they seem popular and some deep German kettle hats seem to differ from German sallets only in that the sallets seem to be less symmetrical front and back and can have movable visors.

I would suggest that those who can find Picts of various kettle hats or sallets from any period post them and discuss the design strong or weak points what they have in common or in what ways they differ.

Which ones would you choose as the best protection or most attractive ?

Or, I give up and go back to discussing liners. Razz Laughing Out Loud

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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
.Or, better yet - don't trust vendors. Do the research yourself.

The information is out there - ignorance is your enemy.



Off into another topic, a bit...

There is some advice that I for one thoroughly agree with. I've found a few vendors who I trust implicitly, but they're pretty darned rare. I know that Jean has found one he trusts, and Jeff disagrees with that, but mileage does vary. But the basic theme that I think is valid is that no matter what a vendor says, you need to check it out for yourself. I know of FAR too many folks who have been burned by this sort of thing, believing the sales pitch of someone who is out to sell something. As my old mentor-gunsmith used to say "That wasn't meant to shoot, it was meant to sell!"

Find a vendor who does quality work, and who's sales pitch actually matches what your research has already shown to be the case. Then ask others about the work, and THEN spend your money. That way you don't have to buy the same basic item three or four times while your finding what is actually the item you want (having been there, done that!)

Back to Kettle Hats, or Liners, or something on those lines... Big Grin I've seen both kinds on originals, so I think it depends as much upon the date of the helmet , as much as most of the other factors such as actual utility...

Cheers!

Gordon

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
...I would suggest that those who can find Picts of various kettle hats or sallets from any period post them and discuss the design strong or weak points what they have in common or in what ways they differ.

Which ones would you choose as the best protection or most attractive ?

I am partial to the Prato Chapel de Fer that Allan (Mercenary's Tailor) has on his site. I think that the slightly downturned brim is both attractive and offers a little better protection than a straight brim. As for the authenticity of the liner - - no comment Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/hist%20helm/w...%2001.html

i buddy of mine's site. he was told that it was almost perfect for 14thc by labelle's specs.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve;

Got that one: I like it a lot as a design although it is more roughly finished than the more usual polished finish.
( Fine with me but not everyones first choice. )

Chuck;

The one you linked looks real nice: I always notice the slight turning down on the sides on helms that make me think of very early Morion ancestors. I tend to like the Morion but it's a bit too late period for the 14th century but I wonder how close one can get to a Morion and still have an early kettle hat.

My Valentine Armouries Eyeslot Kettle Hat is a later deep German style that doesn't have downturned sides but does have a pronounced ridge about 1/2" high that if exaggerated would start looking like the Morion again.

I guess right period or not I will end up with buying a Morion eventually. ( An A & A Cavalier rapier soon to follow I guess. Wink )

Thanks for the Picts guys.

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

there are a ton of historical variations. best armour has a bunch that i've never seen but they claim to have histoical research backing up the designs

http://www.bestarmour.com/klobouk1.htm
http://www.bestarmour.com/klobouk2.htm
http://www.bestarmour.com/klobouk3.htm
http://www.bestarmour.com/klobouk4.htm
http://www.bestarmour.com/klobouk5.htm
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 8:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck;

Thanks again for nice Picts: There is a good variety of kettle hats there, very interesting.

Worth having a look around at the rest of the site. Not sure about ordering something from overseas though, a bit beyond my comfort zone at this point, but I have bookmarked the site.

Armour is fascinating just as sculpture and it would be easy if funds allowed to want to buy many many pieces.

I guess I'm getting a helm addiction on top of my sword and polearm addictions: Will need a lot of therapy. Eek! Laughing Out Loud

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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2005 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I had the money I would have bought this one Big Grin



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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2005 5:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Chuck;

Thanks again for nice Picts: There is a good variety of kettle hats there, very interesting.

Worth having a look around at the rest of the site. Not sure about ordering something from overseas though, a bit beyond my comfort zone at this point, but I have bookmarked the site.

Armour is fascinating just as sculpture and it would be easy if funds allowed to want to buy many many pieces.

I guess I'm getting a helm addiction on top of my sword and polearm addictions: Will need a lot of therapy. Eek! Laughing Out Loud


Best Armour is a pleasure to deal with. No worries there except their growing backlog. They do good work for a fair price.
Admittedly, I'd rather commission Eric Dube for this kind of work, since he's local for you. He just doesn't have the selection of patterns Best Armour does for helmets.
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