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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: help w/ a 13th cent. crusader kit.         Reply with quote

hi, im trying to put together a 13th cent. crusading knight kit. for under 800 $. if anyone could point me to cheap, functional, (possibly nice looking) gear, armour, swords, ect. thatd be great. thanks. (yes, i know 800 is like super minimal budget, but its doable. ive got buddies who did this, and i put together a nice 17 cent. on about 750, so its believable) btw, swords and sharp pointies blunted, im still a minor and mom isnt big on (actively) lethal objects in the house. Laughing Out Loud
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, Windlass Steelcrafts makes some crusader gear, mainly capes, tunics, boots, gloves etc. They also make several swords that might fit into that category, check Kult of Athena's sword page, they have the best prices. They also have plenty of helms and maile. If you search around that site and Museum Replicas, you should find everything you're looking for. Hanwei makes a blunted Practical Norman sword for under $100, Generation 2 also makes a blunted Norman sword for about $129 that might pass.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH23...+Sword.htm The Hanwei.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP00...+Sword.htm The Generation 2.

Check their armour page for helms and such. You should be able to find most of the things you need there, or at By the Sword. I hope you find everything you are looking for, I have also been thinking of putting together a kit of that period. Post some pics when complete!

Nathan.
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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add to Nathan W's info, which was spot on.

Kult of Athena also has some of the better QC in the secondary market. If you like Windlass or Hanwei stuff, getting through them is a good way to get a good piece.
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Michael Ekelmann




Location: Seattle Metro Area, USA
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For premade surcotes and cloaks, Get Dressed for Battle is hard to beat. http://www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk/acatalog...loaks.html
I've seen their wares for sale at some medieval markets here in Germany. Nice good fabric, well made. Of course, if you can sew or know someone who does, you can just make your own in colours you want. http://www.fabrics-store.com/ for linen
http://www.denverfabrics.com/search/search.as...wool%20gab for wool.

“Men prefer to fight with swords, so they can see each other's eyes!" Sean Connery as Mulay Hamid El Raisuli in The Wind and the Lion
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sat 22 Aug, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks all. i think that i will order my surcoat and cape from KOA (the windlass templar set.) and the mail i will order from ringmesh.com i have placed an order for merctailor greaves and bracers, and im ordering his 13th cent. knee cops. the sword is goin to be the hanwei practical knightly, and the shield will be a windlass kite. the halm is goin to be from clang armoury. it runs at about 810, so i think ill be ok. although as i still am of VERY limited means, i will not be able to order it for maybe a couple of months. (later i will purchase a hanwei tinker pearce one hander to upgrade it)
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Josh Maxwell




Location: Michigan
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Aug, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why not just wait to get the Tinker? Unless you need a sword right now, that is. No sense in spending money now on a piece that will be upgraded a few months down the line.
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Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

Posts: 249

PostPosted: Sat 22 Aug, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: help w/ a 13th cent. crusader kit.         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Quarantillo,

On Friday 21 August 2009, you wrote:
. . . i put together a nice 17 cent. on about 750 . . .

I'm interested in the seventeenth-century kit that you assembled. May I ask you to post a description and photos? I'd especially like to see the arms you carry, but I'd also appreciate seeing the soft kit and any armor you may wear.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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Posts: 229

PostPosted: Sat 22 Aug, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

'K Man, I'm poor like you, I'm a college student. Now this is gonna be hard to hear, but SAVE your money. To be blunt most of what you're buying is crap. I mean it's useable but wait 2yrs and you'll decide you wasted your money. I regret many of my purchases I was so excited about a couple years ago. The mail should cost at least $800, the sword at least $800, the scabbard at least $500, you get the point. I mean you'll end up reading about proper mail and you'll begin wanting it, you'll begin wanting a proper sword, etc. And you'll start whishing you'd saved your money, if you want to buy something maybe focus and buy ONE item, or if you crave a complete kit why not get a soft kit in wool and linen and hand sewed, get a belt shoes, a pouch, a good belt knife, a small cross, etc. That could be done for ~$800 and since it will be perfect you'll never regret it. Then slowly add to it, for $500 you could add an aketon, spear, shield and helm. Then a sword, then some mail, then some bracers/greaves, etc. If you build SLOWLY you can get a nice accurate kit you can be proud of, rather then a mediocre costume on the cheap. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to help you, if I didn't want to help you I wouldn't have responded. Please try to follow my advice, I was in your position a couple years ago and WISH I had saved my money. Also if your a minor a soft kit is more accurate as you prolly would be a squire still. Hope you don't get angry at me, just trying to make you not kick yourself in a couple years.
Good luck
Z
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok. I'm going to assume that you want an at least semi-historically accurate kit. In that case, the best advice is: save money. Wink

If you want to get a premade cloak+surcoat, go to GDFB. The KoA stuff is made from cotton, the cut of the clothing is horrible, and it looks...cheap. At least the GDFB stuff is made of wool, and has somewhat better tailoring. If you are going to get more clothing like hosen, a kyrtle and so on, I'd go to www.historicenterprises.com. Their prices are fair, and they use proper materials and tailoring.

I'd stay clear of most of the stuff from Museum Replicas in the areas of clothing. Their shields are ok, but those you can really make on your own without much difficulty.

Just as an addendum: if you can't sew yourself, then there's really no easy way to get a cheap kit that looks good at the same time. Now, I realise that getting a sword, a shield and a helmet is tempting, but I'd honestly put those off for a while. Get a proper soft kit first; undershirt, braies, hosen, tunic, surcoat, cloak, shoes, belt and perhaps a hat or hood. The soft kit is what in my experience takes the longest to aquire, but it is also the most essential part of your kit.

Johan Schubert Moen
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 5:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The main crusading period is in the early part of the 1200s. As such, greaves and braces are not really around yet. (they come into use in the last quarter of the century)
The kite shield is early to mid-century, and fits well for a crusader.

As Johan said, sewing yourself is usually the best option. IF you can get someone that knows how it should be to help you.

the 13th c. is probably the "easiest" century in european dress history. The aestetic is simple garments, mostly in solid colours, without any ribbons or other fancy decorations.
What separates a 13th c nobleman and a commoner is basically the length of his civilian tunic, the quality of the cloth, and how many fittings he has on his belt.

We estimate that a 13th c soft kit will cost about 150 $ in material, and premade shoes. (In Norway, one of the most expensive countries in the world.)
This includes a linnen undertunic and breeches, and a woolen tunic, hose and hood.

Asuming that you just want a military kit, the kit, for early/mid 13th c;
Arming coat. (most of the ones that you can buy is crap.)
Mail coat, preferably a hauberk for a knight, haubergon for sergant
Mail leggings (see this thread; http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=mail+sox )
Surcote (the sleeveless garment worn over the mail.
Belt, thin (usually less than 1")
Sword and baldric
Heater or kite shield.
Helmet; Great helm (apropriate to desired quarter of century), Cervilet (skull cap), Kettlehatt (also worn by knights in this period) or a pointed, norman style helmet if you are very old fashioned, or from a backwater like Scandinavia.
Cloth and mail coifs.
Shoes

Now, in order of priority, you want the hauberk, arming coat and surcote first. If at all posible, get a riveted hauberk. It costs more, but it is (if propperly made) ligther and incredibly more durable. You will also be able to use it for any medevial kits you migth put together.
On a limited budget, I would actually prioritice to get good mail, because both the utility value and the aperance of your kit goes up several leauges.
The arming coat is also important. A well fitted arming coat gives more "street cred" than the mail and sword put together. Everyone can buy a sword and mail on a fair, getting a arming coat takes a little bit of dedication. Wink
The mail leggings can be made from loose panels of mail, attatched to padded hose, if you find a suitable suplier, but you can go for regular cloth hose and shoes instead, portraying a poorer knight, or sergant.
Also, make a propper belt for your sword. The supplied suspension on the Practical Knightly is neither very historical nor very good.

If you are going to use your kit for fairs and such, and not combat, stuff like helmets and coifs can come later.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Martin Erben




Location: Germany, Düsseldorf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

I own some chainmail, which is fully riveted and very well made. I can only recommend it, and it only costs around 300Euro.
look here: http://www.wielands-schmiede.com/
They also have unriveted maille, and flat ring-riveted ones.
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Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good choice with the Hanwei Practical Knightly, I own one and I enjoy it quite a bit. One thing I did with mine was round out the edges of the sword, this way you're less likely to get large nicks in the blade when sparring. It's also a great sword to customize, I did a great grip re-wrap and I also antiqued the blade.
Nathan.
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you all for the help. im very impressed that some very knowlegeble people replied. my reasoning for the sword uprgade is so that i will have 2, so i can spar with my freinds, who are even poorer than i am Laughing Out Loud ! (btw, i will not be using the suspension on the knightly) i am very big for my age, (6ft 200 lbs) so im thinking that under a great helm and surcoat, most ppl wouldnt be able to tell my age. the stuff at ringmesh, ppl on other furoms have told be that its super durable and light. (its all welded and stainless. very innacurate, but easy to maintain and not goin to fall apart on me. my kit is very late crusader, think 1280-90 so that i can use the graves and bracers (not exactly the all-conquering days of bohemond 1, but cheaper since i already have those orderd for another kit). i know that it will have a number of inaccuracies, but for the money, this is the best that i can do. (the trouble is that i can't save up, as i dont have a job, and school will be starting again soon. and i will try to get the 17th cent. pics up. my comptuters finicky, so i dont know if it will let me. (tried twice on another tread) if i cant its on my facebook. send me a freind request saying that your from myArmoury.... here goes nothin........... well, its not loading, but hers a link....
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

btw, i do have a fair amount of growing to do, so i dont want to outgrow super nice, custom, uber-fine stuff. but once i get a job ( im still underage) and finally fill out with growing and muscle building i 100% defiantly will get a very nice kit.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
, think 1280-90 so that i can use the graves and bracers (not exactly the all-conquering days of bohemond 1, but cheaper since i already have those orderd for another kit)


Bracers are right out for that period, metal greaves are possible, but not the thing you see the most.


Johan Schubert Moen
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

bracers aren't seen anywheres as far as that goes. I would go for padded chausis and mail over the calves with soup can knees. full maul hauberk with long sleeves and attached mittens. maybe a rondel at the elbow or simple elbows. coif and a great helmet.

i too am working on a 13thc kit.
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You don't start seeing bracers until closer to the mid 14th (1300's). For the 13th, the mail really should come down to your hands. This is something most of us cheat on, so you're not alone. Happy

I agree with what a lot of folks are saying about saving money towards better equipment later, but I also want to point out the flip-side to that. Sometimes getting what you can afford is also a great way to get started, and it allows you to have a functioning kit that you can use in the meantime, and gradually upgrade the components over time. For example, mine's been a work in progress for 10 years (with more changes to come), and has gradually pushed more into the 14th century as I've modified it over the years.

We all have to start somewhere.

1999:


2009:

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In line with some of the other advice that has been given, you should consider making your own maille armour. Historical Enterprises and Ice Falcon Armoury both sell components. Of course, this would mean doing the appropriate research at least into the general form of the armour, but moreso into proper tailoring of the garment as well.

13th century provides an especial challenge, since you need to have long sleeves on the hauberk, and also create chausses and coif.

I'm actually working on the same thing, strangely enough, and have started work on a coif using Historical Enterprises riveted 9mm rings and some hand punched rings I'm making using Roper Whitney punches. Hopefully I'll get this done relatively quickly and can post the results here.

Note that I made my first butted maille hauberk in high school, even making my own rings. It's not hard as such, just time consuming. For butted, in particular, the tool outlay is pretty minimal. And if you have nothing but pliers, rings can be purchased from Ring Lord for example.

A thought: for this period, maille with alternating rows of solid and riveted rings is appropriate. If you can chance upon a supply of solid rings, you can cut down your workload by half. Unfortunately, Ring Lord has stopped carrying those. Ice Falcon has 1/4" ID punched rings, but I don't know about other sizes.

Good luck!
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
bracers aren't seen anywheres as far as that goes. I would go for padded chausis and mail over the calves with soup can knees. full maul hauberk with long sleeves and attached mittens. maybe a rondel at the elbow or simple elbows. coif and a great helmet.

i too am working on a 13thc kit.


True on the bracers, I was thinking of it as a substitute for "vambrace!. My bad.

Knee cops are ok, although before 1300 one might as well go for simple domed circular discs rather than poleyns proper. I'd avoid elbow protection. It can be seen in the art of the time, but it doesn't appear to be terribly common. The same goes for elbow or shoulder rondels.

Johan Schubert Moen
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Fri 28 Aug, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll toss in a plug for Ringmesh. If you do alot of movement though faires, conventions, and such - its a dream to have a coat of it. It wears great under a set of plate just a space filler, or stand alone with a surcoat. The stuff weighs less than a leather jacket and I have never lost a ring. If you do lose a ring, all Ringmesh comes with a lifetime warranty against link breakage. On the downside, it is not accurate in any way shape or form, but then again, neither is 99% of what you see at the faire. It depends on what you want, comfort or authenticity? Authenticity is going to cost you at least $800 and weigh at least 40lbs.

In the end, it would be good to have both. A real coat of mail and a Ringmesh one for events that did not require actual mail. That's what ended up in my arming chest.

So, Ringmesh. Excellent for faires/cons/light sparring. Bad for living history/heavy sparring. That's my .02! Big Grin

Also, GDFB is your best bet on the surcoat, cloak, and helm. They have more bang for the buck and are of much higher quality/better cut than Windlass stuff.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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