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David Black Mastro
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 Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Martin Wallgren wrote: | I found a intresting thing that Sakuraba did against Renzo Gracie (the fight where Renzos arm is dislocated). The technique that S. use could be illustrated in Codex Wallerstein. I have to analyse the text a little more and test it again. One difference is thoug that in CW it says that you should grab the thumb to get space for your hand but Kazushi can´t do that according to the Pride FC rules.I don´t remeber the platenumber on top of my head but my good friend Joachim might help me out with that.
Might be a red herring but I think it interesting and I just cant wait to the day somebody enters an MMA contest listed with a MA background in WMA/Ringen.
Martin |
Hi Martin,
The technique Sak used against Renzo is a very common one, found in both Asian and European grappling systems. Due to its near-universal use, it goes by a host of names--judo calls it ude garame ("entangled armlock"), whereas BJJ usually calls it the "Kimura" (named after Masahiko Kimura, the 20th century's greatest judoka, who used it to defeat Helio Gracie in the 1950s). CACC refers to it usually as a double wrist lock (in Western wrestling parlance, it is called as such because one is "locking" one's hands around the the wrists--one of the opponent's and one of his own--to secure the hold). It is also often referred to as a keylock, hammerlock, & chickenwing.
Now, this lock is most certainly used for breaking out of a rear clinch and securing a submission, but I don't think that's what's being shown in the Wallerstein plate (then again, interpreting bad Medieval art can be a tricky business  ).
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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These posts have been removed from the sword and shield v single-sword thread in an attempt to preserve clarity in both discussions.
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | These posts have been removed from the sword and shield v single-sword thread in an attempt to preserve clarity in both discussions. |
Thanks, Patrick! 
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Taylor Ellis
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 12:49 am Post subject: |
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*I had a big reply posted up but it got eaten* 
Anyway, to paraphrase;
- I'll concede most of your points
- I'll slightly re-phrase my arguement and say that CW is the best foundation for a mixed martial artist.
- I respect Sakuraba for showing that CW could be superior to bjj on it's own terms, if the wrestler understood how bjj worked.
- I think our difference over the influence thing comes about because (as far as I understand) you believe Carlos put a bit of a Brazillian spin on jj and called it jj, whereas I, not really knowing either way, took him at his word and consider he invented the style using principles of jj and testing it out in vale tudo comps.
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: |
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just to claryfy: I ment Codex wallerstein when I wrote CW, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. (the jungle of abbrevations)
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Wallgren wrote: | | just to claryfy: I ment Codex wallerstein when I wrote CW, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. (the jungle of abbrevations) |
Martin,
I understood you, and I maintain that what is being shown in that plate is not a "Kimura" lock. The defender has not slipped one of his arms under his opponent's, nor has he "locked" onto his opponent's wrist and his own. It looks as if he's just trying to break the clinch through small joint manipulation.
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Oh it was not you I commented that to rather to Taylor
yepp. But in the text there is, as I remember it, a reference to grabbing the arm after making space to do it by taking the thumb and then break the arm or something like that. Don´t have the text transcribed or translated here at work.
Martin
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Taylor Ellis
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Yeah mate, I knew it was the Codex you were referring to.
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Taylor Ellis wrote: | | *I had a big reply posted up but it got eaten* |
That's rough, bro.
| Quote: | Anyway, to paraphrase;
- I'll concede most of your points
- I'll slightly re-phrase my arguement and say that CW is the best foundation for a mixed martial artist. |
Interesting choice.
| Quote: | | - I respect Sakuraba for showing that CW could be superior to bjj on it's own terms, if the wrestler understood how bjj worked. |
I do too.
| Quote: | | - I think our difference over the influence thing comes about because (as far as I understand) you believe Carlos put a bit of a Brazillian spin on jj and called it jj, whereas I, not really knowing either way, took him at his word and consider he invented the style using principles of jj and testing it out in vale tudo comps. |
I just think he continued what Maeda taught him. Maeda likewise tested his skills in mixed matches against Western wrestlers and boxers. FWIW, he was undefeated in these mixed matches.
Check out Mark Hewitt's Catch Wrestling, for a list of all the known early CACC vs. judo/jujutsu matches.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Wallgren wrote: | Oh it was not you I commented that to rather to Taylor
yepp. But in the text there is, as I remember it, a reference to grabbing the arm after making space to do it by taking the thumb and then break the arm or something like that. Don´t have the text transcribed or translated here at work.
Martin |
Post it when you get a chance.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 16 Nov, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote="David Black Mastro"] | Rabbe Jan-Olof Laine wrote: |
There's some fighting off of one's back in Petter's 17th century manual too, but I haven't seen anything to suggest a truly comprehensive method of guardwork, as worked in judo and BJJ. The whole concept of this seems to be a purely Japanese innovation, that was later embraced (and retained) by Brazilian practitioners.
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There are a handful of techniques for fighting from your stomach and from your back in the treatise by Martin Huntfeltz on judicial dueling in harness - this is included in the von Danzig manuscript, and elsewhere. These are a part of Huntfeltz's Unterhalten and Ston (Holding Down and Standing Up), essentially a sub-treatise within the treatise that deals with ground fighting. There are several page's worth of fairly ghastly things to do to your man on the ground too, including how to work him over with your dagger, and in the case of one of the fighting from one's back counters, prevent him from doing the same to you.
I suspect there's more of this stuff out there - I've got manuscripts in my possession that I've barely scratched the surface of, let alone the ones out there I haven't even seen.
Ground fighting is very important in medieval judicial duels - outside interference is strictly prohibited, often on pain of death. I suspect you don't find a lot of this stuff in early (or later) Western arts because it really is useful only in limited situations - dueling and sport. Submission holds on the ground in other tactical situations are simply invitations for the pinned man's friends to cut your throat from behind, unless you have psychological forces on your side, ie. you have authority (you're a cop) or pseudo-authority (you're a bouncer, security guard, etc.) that dissuades such interference.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 16 Nov, 2005 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
There are a handful of techniques for fighting from your stomach and from your back in the treatise by Martin Huntfeltz on judicial dueling in harness - this is included in the von Danzig manuscript, and elsewhere. These are a part of Huntfeltz's Unterhalten and Ston (Holding Down and Standing Up), essentially a sub-treatise within the treatise that deals with ground fighting. There are several page's worth of fairly ghastly things to do to your man on the ground too, including how to work him over with your dagger, and in the case of one of the fighting from one's back counters, prevent him from doing the same to you.
I suspect there's more of this stuff out there - I've got manuscripts in my possession that I've barely scratched the surface of, let alone the ones out there I haven't even seen.
Ground fighting is very important in medieval judicial duels - outside interference is strictly prohibited, often on pain of death. I suspect you don't find a lot of this stuff in early (or later) Western arts because it really is useful only in limited situations - dueling and sport. Submission holds on the ground in other tactical situations are simply invitations for the pinned man's friends to cut your throat from behind, unless you have psychological forces on your side, ie. you have authority (you're a cop) or pseudo-authority (you're a bouncer, security guard, etc.) that dissuades such interference.
All the best,
Christian |
Hi Christian,
Groundwork certainly has a long pedigree in the Western arts--I've never contested that. From the Ancient Greek pankration onwards, we can see quite a lot of ground wrestling in the Western context. In more modern times, the West has been the home to one of only 2 really comprehensive methods of ground wrestling (American CACC/English Lancashire wrestling)--with the other type being Japanese judo/jujutsu.
The only thing I questioned was the specific idea of fighting off of one's back, which seems more of a Japanese approach (based on the existing evidence, at least).
I would love to see the Huntfeltz treatise, however.
Best Regards,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well I tell ya this much, MMA is hard to do in mid forties, for me it finally became impossible due to my back.
Here is the website of the school I trained at www.hackneyscombat.com
The attatchment is a picture of Keith Hackney and myself from last year.
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="David Black Mastro"] | Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
The only thing I questioned was the specific idea of fighting off of one's back, which seems more of a Japanese approach (based on the existing evidence, at least).
I would love to see the Huntfeltz treatise, however.
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David,
I apologize - it just dawned on me that I never got back to you on this. Huntfeltz's treatise appears in von Danzig and several other sources, always as a subset to his gloss of Liechtenauer's armoured judicial combat.
I have the entire von Danzig work translated - the problem lies in identifying the right book project to have it in. As I'm now doing separate training books anyway, I'm not inclined to try to photographically interpret the entire von Danzig (a la "Secrets") - it's just too huge for that and would require two or three books, a tricky thing given that several of its treatises overlap each other considerably.
Instead, I'll likely bundle this translation with one or two others into some kind of "Three Medieval Fight Books" sort of title.
I've got a cache of manuscript candidates heading my way right now from Europe, so these may help to define just how such a project might take shape.
Now, lest I get you too pumped on this, bear in mind that Hunfeltz has only a little on fighting on your back - it's mostly how to put the other guy down and hold him long enough to dispatch him with the dagger.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hi All!
Here we come to the question of context again. It´s all up to situation. In a juridical fight submission could be used quite safley in the meaning that your opponents friends hardly is going to intervine. But in a barbrawl nhey sertenly would. Then it is the thing with what if you do the submission a little harder and with more speed, soome techniques then become breakings rather than submissions. This was the case David and I was talking about.
It goes like this;
Sakuraba is standing with his back against Gracie in a position simmilar to the one on the picture from CW.
S press away G´s left hand with his own right hand (in this case the whole hand because of Pride FC rules, but in a "real" fight a thumbgrip would do exellent).
When he got a small space between his body and G´s left arm he gets his arm in that space frum under and grabs G´s wrist with his own left hand.
Here he keep holding G´s hand and arm in this grip but turns to the left ad press his arm upp and around G´s position counterclockwise with force and speed until they both land on the ground in a arm bar.
The thing is that in this movment G´s elbow (and possibly shoulder) is dislocated in a quite horrofying way and the match is over.
What I think I mean is that the way a human body is constructed is the same all over the world and has been the last few 10 thousands years and the techniques would be simillar in many fightingsystems. Some of the things we look at in the manuals are probaly around still, and MMA is sometimes the closest thing to ringen we have. Also if we want to reconstruct ringen we should not disregard the friendly play that is refered to in many recordings from the past as a way to train for the real thing. And then we are very close to the Vale tudo/MMA stuff we see today in the media, IMO!
and all, thanks for a really nice discussion, hope it continues;)
Martin
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Christian,
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | David Black Mastro wrote: | | Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
The only thing I questioned was the specific idea of fighting off of one's back, which seems more of a Japanese approach (based on the existing evidence, at least).
I would love to see the Huntfeltz treatise, however.
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David,
I apologize - it just dawned on me that I never got back to you on this. |
No biggie, bro. 
| Quote: | | Huntfeltz's treatise appears in von Danzig and several other sources, always as a subset to his gloss of Liechtenauer's armoured judicial combat. |
OK.
| Quote: | I have the entire von Danzig work translated - the problem lies in identifying the right book project to have it in. As I'm now doing separate training books anyway, I'm not inclined to try to photographically interpret the entire von Danzig (a la "Secrets") - it's just too huge for that and would require two or three books, a tricky thing given that several of its treatises overlap each other considerably.
Instead, I'll likely bundle this translation with one or two others into some kind of "Three Medieval Fight Books" sort of title.
I've got a cache of manuscript candidates heading my way right now from Europe, so these may help to define just how such a project might take shape.
Now, lest I get you too pumped on this, bear in mind that Hunfeltz has only a little on fighting on your back - it's mostly how to put the other guy down and hold him long enough to dispatch him with the dagger. |
Hey, every little bit of info is well worth the effort! Thanks for the heads up, and I look forward to eventually seeing this stuff.
Best Regards,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Taylor Ellis
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Just a couple of questions David,
| Quote: | | I just think he continued what Maeda taught him. Maeda likewise tested his skills in mixed matches against Western wrestlers and boxers. FWIW, he was undefeated in these mixed matches. |
I thought he lost both attempts at the catch tournaments he made? I'm guessing then it was by pin?
| Quote: | | Check out Mark Hewitt's Catch Wrestling, for a list of all the known early CACC vs. judo/jujutsu matches |
And was cacc universally beaten by jj? I'm fairly sure I remember reading Farmer Burns commenting that jj had nothing in it that a good catch wrestler wasn't equipped to deal with?
Cheers mate.
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Taylor Ellis wrote: | Just a couple of questions David,
| Quote: | | I just think he continued what Maeda taught him. Maeda likewise tested his skills in mixed matches against Western wrestlers and boxers. FWIW, he was undefeated in these mixed matches. |
I thought he lost both attempts at the catch tournaments he made? I'm guessing then it was by pin? |
He was defeated in two CACC tournaments via pin, but he was never defeated by submission, AFAIK.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Check out Mark Hewitt's Catch Wrestling, for a list of all the known early CACC vs. judo/jujutsu matches |
And was cacc universally beaten by jj? |
No.
Looking at Hewitt's list, it looks as if things were actually about 50/50, in terms of victories.
But there's a problem with analyzing the above--as Hewitt noted, not all of the mixed matches were held under the same rules. Some were straight judo or catch contests, while others used alternating rules. A few were true NHB bouts.
So, it's difficult to appraise the situation, if Judo Fighter A lost by pin to Catch Fighter B.
| Quote: | | I'm fairly sure I remember reading Farmer Burns commenting that jj had nothing in it that a good catch wrestler wasn't equipped to deal with? |
He did indeed claim that, and I've always found it interesting.
Certainly, Burns knew his craft. The same year that Yukio Tani defeated the British CACC champ Jem Mellor, Burns' protege Frank Gotch defeated K. Aoyogi (1904).
But Burns and Gotch do not appear to be representative of CACC as a whole; they made subs their specialty.
| Quote: | | Cheers mate. |
Likewise, bro.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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