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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, Dan!

This arguement about priests' weapons is getting more and more ruthless Laughing Out Loud ...
Especially for me, I can say, that I already agree with you. All my knowledge about their use by clericals is based on the Song of Roland and on the Bayeux Tapestry. So, if all you say is correct (you gave so many examples), let's consider this as you say, "Victorian scholars misinformation". OK?

Regards!
Boris
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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Posts: 700

PostPosted: Tue 29 Nov, 2005 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone!

Is anyone still there Question

Regards!
Boris
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm probably waaay off the mark here, but the only religious dogma I know of concerning "not shedding blood", while still condoning religious violence, would be the practices of the Thugee cult (from whence the term thug is derived) from India, during British colonization.

To paraphrase,and please forgive me its been a long time, the Thugee were assasinating British officicials via garotte in an attempt to terrorize them and undermine British stability in the region. The choice of strangulation was supposed to relate to a story in the Bhagavad Gita where Kali fights a demon. Every time the demon was cut, its blood turned into a new demon, so Kali eventually strangles it. Very Hydra-esque. There was also something about assasination being a sacred practice, as it forestalled the return of Kali for a thousand years, but I'll look it up if anyone thinks it's important. The British eventually wiped the cult out, with some difficulty.

I said that to say this: Could this priestly abstention from spilling blood be a mix of the Thugee practice, and the historically flexible Victorian mind? I know that This rule has become almost eubiquitous in role-playing games, and many of us grew up with the premise of a mace wielding priest. Again, I may be way off, I just thought I'd mention it.

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Priests and Bishops belonged to Brotherhoods or sects, so it would be likely that some Priests and Bishops had different rules governing their behavior depending on their affiliation.
William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The whole priests and mace thing, if true, may just be a case of ONE priest or Bishop making the choice of using a mace and the over generalization of the story to all priests as some sort of rule. ( Probably Bishop Odo ? )

And the Victorian " error " thing.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The mace is one of the most ancient and brutal of weapons. Ever since the Neolithic, it has been a a symbol of royal authority, embodying the ruler's ability to smash his opponent's brains out. :-)

It has been a symbol of royal authority and power in both the Egyptian and the Iranian monarchical traditions, and spread thence to the royal sceptres of modern monarchies . . . . .

Even in the Middle Bronze Age, when bladed weapons become paramount on the battlefield, the stone-headed mace is still a paramount symbol of Pharaonic authority.
Obviously, the mace is as much a symbol as it is a practical weapon, and it is a *very* good weapon . . . . . .

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Dec, 2005 12:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Obviously, the mace is as much a symbol as it is a practical weapon, and it is a *very* good weapon . . . . . .


Agreed. The mace is too common, almost universal, in fact, to be an either/or. I'm sure it has been used on more way, with more designs and more materials, in more places than any other weapon, with the possible exception of the spear and axe. The requires little skill to produce, but the artistry that can be imbued into its designs are immense. The fact that it is an advancement on the club, the mother of hand weapons, gives a sense of antiquity and provenence rivaling even fire( cue up the Also Sprach Zarathustra.)

It seems unproductive to get heated over the use of a tool/weapon/symbol that has been in continuous use as a tool/weapon/symbol for what, five or six milennia?

I just remembered that one of the first weapons I ever made as a kid was amace. I used a 1/2" by 16" threaded rod, two bolts, and a stack of 3" square washers, set at angles. I wrapped the bottom of the "haft" in electrical tape to pad my hand. Ahh, memories. Big Grin I wonder where that thing went?

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Dec, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
I just remembered that one of the first weapons I ever made as a kid was a mace.


Oh, yeah! Laughing Out Loud
I'm planning to make a mace also. It would be the typical Eastern Europe "shestoper", maybe. I also have some plans for spiked flail, but I'm not sure about it.

Regards!
Boris
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Sergio Duarte




Location: Lisbon
Joined: 20 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Dec, 2006 3:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Hinman wrote:
Boris,

It is probably as you suspected. The hole in the bronze suggests that to me. The way it could have gone was: Bronze nut, and iron pin, first, iron pin inserted into nut, lead poured in, pin rivetted over. Sadly, the book does not discuss the possible process of making the suspended club, so I have no 'official' answer to give you. It only says:
Quote:
They were made of metal or bone, weighted in the middle and with a loop at one and to which a thong of about 50 cm long was attached. The thong was looped round the hand, so that it was an easily concealed weapon intened for street fighting.


It also mentions earlier on in the book
Quote:
We can summarize the techinques available to the smith of medieval Nogforod as follows: (1) free hammering, (2) welding, (3) thermal working, (4) turning the metal with grindstones and files, (5) cutting with cold chisels, (6) polishing, (7) soldering, (8) coating with non-ferrous metal, (9) incrusting with non-ferrous metals and gold and silver, (10) smith's artistic forging
So either of these hypothesis are possible, but judging by the hole in the bronze layer, you are probably correct, though this may not be indicative of all clubs with this construction.


Greetings
I think that the only way it could have been done was by pouring molten lead into the bronze nut. I say this because lead melts at a very low temperature and bronze doesn't. So if you try to pour molten bronze over led you would get some kind of alloy possibly or destroy everything.
If bronze could be easily molten on my stove I would have done many great things! Razz
Unfortunately it's not Eek!

I could spare you but I'd rather spear you.
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