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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh Warren wrote:
I didn't think Craig's comments were condescending at all. If that's what passes for condescension in your estimation, then this debate will be a very difficult exercise in walking on eggshells and tiptoeing around moderator sensibilities. How would you respond to him, Chad?


Read our Rules of Conduct and take note that you are expected not to debate or argue against moderator actions If you have any questions about it, then private message him. I expect no further public commentary on this.

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Gabriele C.




Location: Roma,Italia
Joined: 09 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2007 3:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I totally agree with you Craig. My english is so poor that i can't properly discuss the topic as i can do writing in italian, but you expressed an opinion very close to mine.
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Peter Bosman




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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ha, I can all see it with my minds eye. A bunch of colourfull samurai making their mutually develloped and studied traditional moves against a group of french knights with their assortement of personal preferences and whatever works best approach being baflled by eachoter.
While they are figurring out what the h.. the other party is about comes the mamluk cavalry showering the lot with arrows, then poke them with sharp sticks, hack away with maces, curved and straight swords to run to a safe distance if things heat op or not work out.

The point being it doesn't work this way.

If you want to look at what happens when a party has to deal with differently armed of differently fighting approaches do not loo at samurai. The western knights were a lot more flexible but even they are not the best example. The mamluks come close as they fought the mongols and the crusaders at the same time. An even 'better' example in general are the polish as they faced three different parties. Even they are however not the 'best' in absolute terms.

Japanese cars have conquered the world and mercedes has conquered japan. 'Best' depends Wink

Peter
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Nehemiah Asbot





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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think alot of this is geting too politically correct on one end and then totally biased on the other.

The problems are a result of how vague the question is. There are people who are talking about armies now and time periods and all these other details because there was nothing specific about it mentioned.

But if youre gonna look at armies then keep in mind that Asian warfare (I'm gonna mean Chinese here) was about almost a blitz. First a huge rain of arrows to weaken the ranks of attacking armies then a storm of cavalry to break up the remaining regiments followed by a horde of infantry to pick off stragglers. This was all to be surgical and sufficient without retaliation. Basically meaning that it was a defensive blitzkrieg (yeah i know it doesn't make sense in english).

Compare that to the more straight and regimented attack force of western military it'd be about how good the shields are and how long can the asian army last if it can't breach the defense. however since we are talking recurve bows and platemail of the period chances are the arrows would pierce and the cavalry would trample but you never know.

If we go all out European and Asian then really the idea of Longsword or (i'm more familiar with the broadsword argument) Katana (actually the odachi if were going with longsword) is kinda lame. Full out war east and west probably means the entire fleet. never mind nations and allegances so you end up with different pairs.

since going about it full army wise is just making a mess we should go about it in those separate pairs almost like an exhibition.

For brute strength you have the Norwegian Beserkers with the war axes against the huns with the lance or halberd (not going for the horseback archery here otherwise the Beserker would be slaughered and that would ruin the point) Both forces have been known to wreak havoc across the southern reaches of Europe. I'd say it would come down to luck. Both are aggressive and focus on quick bursts of offensive thrusts and charges and both have remarkable endurance.

For cavalry you'd have the zanmato wielding samurai on horseback with recurve bow for range against the shield and lance of a period european horseman. In this situation the tactics would be key and the asians are known for their cavalry tactics. Both are used in their armies for shock and to scatter regiments but the zanmato and other asian variants are meant specifically to damage other cavalry (after all if you fight in east asia its a must) Wether or not the zanmatos would immediately disable the enemy horse the shock value would present and the following distancing would let the samurai or relative warrior use their bow to capitalize.

For straight infantry you could go with the standard knight with broadsword or axe versus the samurai wielding standard set of dachi, kozuka, wakizashi, and spare odachi. This match would still be a tie the reason being that the chainmail and platemail armor is waaay too thick to pierce with any glancing sliding or what have you attack a samurai's weapons would be capable of. Hence the archers again. But likewise the heavy and cumbersome european armor and heavy broadsword make the agility of any attacks quite easy for the much lighter samurai to dodge. basically you end up with a scene of the samurai using everything but the kitchen sink (and then later the kitchen sink) to make any useful strike on the knight before the blades end up dulling while the knight keeps lunging for the samurai or trying to catch the katanas in a lock or trying to push with a shoulder thrust and not gettin anywhere. Then it would come down to endurance and really now i think both would collapse before any advantage is gained. Luck might help but really the samurai would have to be pretty poorly trained to take a bad hit from the knight and no knight is gonna be stupid enough to leave himself open to one samurai.

For close range finesse fighting we go to the obvious European rapier and Chinese jian. Both are not meant to take heavy strikes with a key focus on dodging and parrying to unbalance a foe before capitalizing. In the case of a fencer a lunge. For the jian a break to get close enough for a quick cut or jab into a weak point. Both armors would be kept light so as to avoid restricting movement but thick enough to prevent glancing blows. This usually means a basket guard and leather pads for the fencer and leather strap armor for the jian swordsman. now i might be a fan of the jet li swordfight in fearless but super cool high jumping wushu moves aside the fight would probably be similar to that. A fierce and fast fencer keeping enough distance from the swordsman to anticipate openings which would be just what the swordsman needs to break form and catch a weakness in the epee to get close for a killing blow. typically the jian would be used as little as possible holding off the rapier when absolutely necessary but not enough to mess with the edges. That usually also means blocking with the flat side of the blade and working with the impacts. Unlike the movie it would really come down to how keen the fencer is with keeping up variety in the attacks and the swordsmen's versatility with the weapon. If the fencer can keep the swordsmen at a distance, length of battle may win it for him as it takes much less energy to lunge with a rapier than it does to use a jian effectively. BUT because the jian is very effective the swordsman just needs to make sure he catches all the possible openings and even one moderate one can be a kill shot. It is much easier to parry with the jian and its free handle than work with the basket guard on the rapier. Older forms would still be less balanced and the fencer still needs a firm grip on the handle unlike the swordsman with the jian.

For mid range infantry you come to the polearm or halberd and the Qiang or Da Dao. Speed is key for singles. Regimenting is key for groups. Da Daos are usually used in singles but those weapons would tear through halberds and polearms, more of a match for pole axes but at their range and speed they would screw up an axe wielder. Qiang groups and spear groups would be better matched and may keep at a standstill. (Again archers) (actually maybe even cavalry) On the european side though you have to go with their tight formations with shield reinforcement. The tougher regime would break right through the light phalanx of the eastern armies and pick off stragglers. Just the groups i see a complete European domination and that's probably the better way to go about it.

For long range its all about the arrows and again the East are known for their archery. Multiple crossbow and recurve style defeats western archery every time which is also why we ended up adopting that form too. And then started using guns. And then RPGs and incendiaries.

Next up is style. on the contrary to what the asker said, there is actually lots of variation to styles and weapons on both sides. The difference is that (well also cuz it became more Japan vs Europe than Asian vs Europe) the Japanese modified what they thought was the perfect formula which they perfected from the Chinese Dao and proved every time that it was definitely superior to the dao. but even then you have the odachi, dachi, kozuka, wakizashi, kunai and a few others that aren't as mainstream. moving out of Japan you get the jian (your straight double edge) a few kinds of axes and lances, the da dao and halberd, the butterfly swords, the hook swords, and even shuriken which are basically throwable knives that were redesigned to fly sorta better. And also contrary, western broadswords weren't all or even mostly double edged. Many broadswords, arming swords, and long swords were cruciform but sharpened on only one side. You also have angled swords and single/double sided axes and who can forget the smithing genius of the hollow tip javelin? These styles were all built from combat style (in the east) and war experience (in the west) to be better suited for the type of battle waged.

The samurai typically wants fast and easy to continue circular slices so the slicing power and balance of the angled and single edged dachi made sense. The heavier claymores and zweihänders of the west provided better strikes and lunges for knights. I still love the agility of the rapier and versatility of the jian tbh. Nothing says I'm gonna destroy you like somebody throwing tons of strikes at you within seconds while keeping you pinned.

Wow that was long lol but hey i had 3 pages to work with.
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Tod Glenn




Location: Helena MT
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a German video showing differentially tempered Katana versus European sword. Interesting, but unfortunately I don't speak German. Not what a lot of Katana fans would expect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s#t=5m55s


Last edited by Tod Glenn on Wed 31 Aug, 2011 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting, does anyone here want to translate? (obviously this doesn't prove anything, but still fun to watch)
E Pluribus Unum
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Long editorials mostly serve to convince the author that they already hold the truth.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nehemiah Asbot wrote:
I think alot of this is geting too politically correct on one end and then totally biased on the other. <snip>

This post if so full of myths, misconceptions, and untruths that it is difficult to know where to start. None of it contributes anything useful to this discussion.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
This seems to be one of those topics that always boils down to my dad is tougher than your dad, in the end.


Both sides suffer from "ethnic badass" hype. Western writers thought that Asian stuff is better and eastern writers thought that European stuff was better. But then you also have writers who are convinced that their stuff is best and nothing will change their mind. I suppose you could look at which technology was adopted more often. Once Asian and European cultures traded with one another, which stuff do you see more often on the battlefield? How much western equipment do you see on Japanese and Chinese battlefields and how much Asian equipment do you see on European battlefields?
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T. Arndt




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Nehemiah Asbot wrote:
I think alot of this is geting too politically correct on one end and then totally biased on the other. <snip>

This post if so full of myths, misconceptions, and untruths that it is difficult to know where to start. None of it contributes anything useful to this discussion.


Some threads are better left dead. This one had been in the grave four about 4 years.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
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William P




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Nehemiah Asbot wrote:
I think alot of this is geting too politically correct on one end and then totally biased on the other. <snip>

This post if so full of myths, misconceptions, and untruths that it is difficult to know where to start. None of it contributes anything useful to this discussion.


Some threads are better left dead. This one had been in the grave four about 4 years.

more importantly, as pointed out, its too vague. the more recent thread comparing german and chinese styles is much better.
in reality the only way to figure out how one fares against another is to get them to compete.
on the extreme end it would involve combatants in period armour for their swordsmanship style, and then compete to test how in melee one would fare against another, a milanese knight against a 15-16th C samurai, using hand and a half longsword against the katana, maybe even starting off with using poleaxe and yari, or kanabo respectively.
the ONLY way to determine a decent result is to actively test things.

and i think, correct me if i'm wrong but such sword competitions exist using correctly balanced and weighted boffer weapons.
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Jim Clark





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The cross is used in Fiore, both by grappling your opponents with the left hand to bind or disarm and by using your own to leverage, pin or stab.

Steven H wrote:
Jack-
This is not the way the crossguard is used in HES, it is the way it is used in Hollywood movies. Grabbing the cross is not a meaningful part of the historical longsword styles. The crossguard provides necessary protection the ochs guard, an essential element of winding, and which does not appear in other sword styles that I am aware of.
-Steven
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Benjamin Floyd II





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
and i think, correct me if i'm wrong but such sword competitions exist using correctly balanced and weighted boffer weapons.


On sword competitions, there are many of them around the globe. I've been to and competed in a good number in the US. However, we don't fight with boffers. We either use steel or plastic. The word boffer usually means padded weapon. Padded weapons don't behave realistically enough though there are some fairly good options out there.

The competitions themselves vary greatly on the rules and overall intent of the fighting.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't see how anything positive could come out of the framing of European versus Asian. Simply using those categories reflects modern political conditions and identities. Both assume a unity between wildly different cultures and histories. The popular myth of superiority of Asian martial arts comes out of the Renaissance and Enlightenment disdain for the European medieval past as well as the Orientalist exoticization of the East. Attempting to counter this by presenting European martial arts as better utterly misses the point and does nothing to advance our understanding of historical weapons and warfare.
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James Head





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can we all please agree to stop feeding our brains to this absurd zombie thread and banish it back to the grave from whence it came?

/thread
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Everyone,
If you dislike a thread, show your displeasure by staying out of it rather than replying to it (which bumps it back to the top). All these posts that groan about how bad the thread is simple give the thread more airtime, more time at the top of the forum, and make it look more relevant because of a higher reply count.

If you have nothing to contribute to a thread, leave the thread alone. If you dislike a thread, leave it alone and let it die naturally.

The worst thing to do is add posts with zero content that serve to prolong a thread you dislike. Happy

Happy

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Steven H




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jim Clark wrote:
The cross is used in Fiore, both by grappling your opponents with the left hand to bind or disarm and by using your own to leverage, pin or stab.

Steven H wrote:
Jack-
This is not the way the crossguard is used in HES, it is the way it is used in Hollywood movies. Grabbing the cross is not a meaningful part of the historical longsword styles. The crossguard provides necessary protection the ochs guard, an essential element of winding, and which does not appear in other sword styles that I am aware of.
-Steven


How long ago did I write that? I was wrong. I know that now.

Darn internet. Never forgets a thing.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Fri 02 Sep, 2011 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The basic misconception here is that katana = asian sword. Sorry, but if you include all of asia from all of history, there is WAY more sword variety you will see then in all of europe from all of history. Heck, the variety of swords from just korea is just mind boggling...much less if you include china, mongolia, india, south east islands etc etc. And even in the katana, there is quite a few different geometry that was used. And even in japan, the tachi preceeds the katana and had quite a bit of variety...and then there is specialized blades of japan on top of that. So if you started to compare all the variety vs each other in different conditions...well I'd think you will find out both sides were equally creative at finding way to kill each other and finding what worked best for their environment.
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William P




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Sep, 2011 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Head wrote:
Can we all please agree to stop feeding our brains to this absurd zombie thread and banish it back to the grave from whence it came?

/thread

tempting, but im having too much fun thinking about the possibilities (though i realize that my limited knowledge of the finer points of sword styles means i myself wont try and speculate too much on the particulars of the style)

if we establish the techniques used in various regions understands their strengths and limitations as well as the strengths and limitations of the weapons and armour/ defensive gear the person uses in the combative context of the fighting style, one can establish where one style would have a theoretical advantage

yes often it does come down to the better fighter. but differences in technique and weapons/ Armour (if any) can help determine the outcome in a battlefield/ duel between even equally skilled combatants

for example, 19thC small sword or saber, would be relatively ill suited to defeat an armoured knight using armoured combat techniques for the longsword since the later period styles are trained to fight mostly unarmoured opponents. and the designs of the swords make them not very well suited to dealing with plate harness (smallsword might do ok)

of course 19th C saber/ smallsword would have different chances against unarmoured longswordman

However at the same time the general manner of using the longsword in the manner by which you would deal with an armoured opponent i guess would be a relatively inefficient way to take down an unarmoured man, since, unless i am mistaken it uses only a fraction of the moves the longsword can deliver although i guess against an unarmoured man a longswordsman, armoured or not could simply use unarmoured techniques.

another one would be that a wealthy norseman with type X viking sword and round shield, with period protection (maile byrnie, spangenhelm with maille aventail etc)
would not be as able to deal with an armoured longswordsman, since there are not that many areas on a plate harness that can be easily compromised by the thin wide spatulate pointed geometry of the type X sword the legs arms, neck and hands are mostly covered in plates, and the armpits have besagaws and maile protecting them,

so the viking would likely have a much harder time defeating the armoured knight not to say he cant do it, but he'd have a much harder time killing the knight than the knight would have of killing him (assuming fairly equal skill/ experience)

whereas a longsword wielding knight would be able to simply work around the armour, (though he might have problems getting around the roundshield.) and attack the unarmoured parts, legs, arms, throat etc.

but if both opponents were unaarmoured the odds shift more, since the viking could for example shield bind his opponent,


simply put these discussions can be relevant and somewhat enlightening even if we cannot actually determine a clear winner (assuming one would exist at all)
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William P




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Sep, 2011 2:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
The basic misconception here is that katana = asian sword. Sorry, but if you include all of asia from all of history, there is WAY more sword variety you will see then in all of europe from all of history. Heck, the variety of swords from just korea is just mind boggling...much less if you include china, mongolia, india, south east islands etc etc. And even in the katana, there is quite a few different geometry that was used. And even in japan, the tachi preceeds the katana and had quite a bit of variety...and then there is specialized blades of japan on top of that. So if you started to compare all the variety vs each other in different conditions...well I'd think you will find out both sides were equally creative at finding way to kill each other and finding what worked best for their environment.


asia also includes styles from malay, cambodian, thai,india china, korea, mongolia as WELL as japan.

though im gonna assume for sake of argument, most are thinking of china, japan, india and korea.
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