[Jean Thibodeau]

Anybody know if the early kite shield might still have a cut out and a bar handle in the centre of the shield even if this grip was not normally used because the kite shield would also have the normal arm and hand straps that became the only grips.

This grip retained only out of tradition and used as a back-up means of holding the shield like an earlier round shield.

If yes, this would have evolved to kite shield with boss but no hole and grip as soon as the lack of usefulness ( redundancy ) of the old grip quickly became apparent: The kite shield being maybe too heavy for a centre hand hole ?

The boss may have remained a feature if it was still useful when using the shield offensively or was still good at deflecting
Swords or other weapons. And fighters used to having a boss would still prefer having one.

After more time the boss may have become smaller and smaller until having no boss showed itself to be advantageous and techniques of using the shield without a boss may have proven better than having a boss, or people just got used to not having one ?

[Patrick Kelly]

[Jonathan Blair]

What about strapping? What's the best/most historically accurate means to attach arm straps and guige to the shield? My MRL heater shield uses something like a carriage bolt, but I doubt the historical veracity of carriage bolts to mount straps to the back.

[Nathan Robinson]

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

[Chuck Russell]

depends on the shield as for a norman kite shield, the Bay tap shows a variety of ways to strap it. prob with today is we dont have the nails they did. so most places use a carrage bolt that is peened down on the inside over some sort of home made washer or somthing.

[Darwin Todd]

Does anyone know if the Norman kites tapered any in thickness from middle to edge like the Viking shields?

[Felix Wang]

Patrick is right about the absence of any pictorial evidence of a "functional" boss in a kite shield. There are no surviving examples, so all the evidence is against a center-grip.

The historically accurate way of attaching straps to a heater shield is known, since a few of these have survived. The straps were attached with rivets/clenched nails and washers. Not quite the same as carriage bolts. By the way, it is possible to get clenching nails, although I have not tried that method myself. Plain old peened rivets work fine, and are historically correct.

As mentioned above, there are no surviving kite shields, so we don't have the subtle information like tapering the thickness. Alas.

[Geoff Freeman]

Well, I've found that I really like the look of the boss on the kite shield. It just adds a little somethin' else that I like.

Now, when the shield is finally made (curved, trimmed in rawhide, covered with linen or canvas, strapped), is there a certain type of paint to use? This may not be such a big issue, if the color is appropriate to the times, but what would work best? I'll leave myself to look at artwork for design and such.

Along that same vein (and maybe for a different topic), my understanding of heraldry is not very good. Most of what I know was developed in the Late Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Since my (current) primary area of interest is the late 11th-early 12th centuries, I'd like to paint my shield in this fashion. Would any design do? Or was there a system of heraldry at this time?

Thanks again for all the help.

[Patrick Kelly]

In terms of 11th-12th century proto-heraldry try to stick with fairly simple geometric patterns. This period saw the beginnings of heraldry as we know it. Complicated patterns were a thing of the future. A lot of people like the styilized winged dragon images we see illustrated on shields from the 11th century. I like them too but found they don't fit well on a kite shield with a large boss. Try to stick with rather basic primary type colors. I went with a blue/white combo on mine because I hadn't seen that combination used a lot in modern LH circles. (and I wanted my matching helmet to look like something other than the nose cone of a polaris missle)

[Geoff Freeman]

[Bob Burns]

Yep Geof that is exactly the form press I was envisioning. Years ago I was a cabinet maker for 8 years, though I have never made a shield, the principles stay the same and ash is one of the best woods for bending. Say you are building a bar and it is a curve, well the ash would be steamed in a pvc pipe then formed to the bend of the substrate, which would be the bar, per say (drinking bar). Of course the bend is done in layers, I am right now thinking of the outer edge of the serving surface.
This is why I mentioned getting the wood steamed up or damp, then brushing on glue and repeating process in layering 1/4 inch ash or birch plywood. Then of course putting these layers in the form press that you depicted in your press, was exactly what I was thinking.

I tell ya, this website is an endless learning resource.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Patrick Kelly]

That pattern is something I've been tempted to try myself. I like it a lot. Off hand I don't know of any good source of exact colors for the period. I have seen an illustration in Osprey's The Normans that shows that pattern in blue and yellow. It looks to work pretty well like that. When choosing colors for this stuff I personally don't get too hung up on exact shades, etc., as I feel there was quite a bit more variety than is commonly held by today's 'plain Jane is better' crowd. It just depended on what you could afford. I've been told that by those very knowledgeable in migration era through early medieval designs. When choosing colors I try to envision something that wouldn't have required a lot of exotic pigments or minerals to achieve but is a step or two above raw burlap and leather.

I'm sure someone will chime in with some better sources of info on available pigments.

[Felix Wang]

One possible inspiration for color combinations might be the much-derided color scheme of the Bayeux Tapestry. It clearly isn't naturalistic, and I am sure the colors are not exactly as they were when it was new. However, the mix of colors might give a fair idea of the palette available, and how they were combined.

[Chuck Russell]

for paint, use milk paint. some where someone told me its pretty dead on period wise. check out: Hastings 1066, norman cavalry and saxon infantry by thierry leprevost & Georges Bernage. isbn 2 84048 150 2 on page 27 it shows all of the styles of kits used in the bay. also gives an overview of how the straping works.

i agree to teh lack of use of the boss. its just to hard to use on a kite. also think of it this way. a boss on a kite shield, one can fear/hear/tell where his opponents sword is on his shield by the knock to the boss. if you've ever fought with one u know what i mean. it also could be there to help w/ cav's deflecting spears or swords at an upward thrust. hitting the boss and stopping it or turning its direction

there is so much good info that one could go into about the kite shiled's use in teh bay tap. thanks for bringing this subject up. i plan to make a new one this winter myself. my old one just needs to be updated

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/...CT0072.jpg

[Jesse Frank]

I would think that it would be fairly plausible to consider the plant resources of the area to get a feel for what pigments may have been used.

I'm looking through a book called the dyers garden to get an idea, and blue, from woad would probably be common. I think Madder is common there, so red would be one. Yellow from st johns wort, and so on.

Also from ocher you get red, so probably a lot of mineral dyes, too. Don't have an easy reference for that off hand

Now, a paint and textile expert I aint, but those would be some of my guesses.

[Stephen Hand]

The discussion of kite shields raises the point of the amount of curve on the shield. From my examination of period artwork, kite shields in the 11th century had a shallow curve ( or none at all - it's hard to say). This is based on the physical appearance, the strapping arrangement - certain arrangements are just not possible with a deeply curved shield (due to the lack of curvature of your forearm) and the way the shield is shown being used, held edge forward like flat shields throughout history.

In the 12th century the curve deepens quite dramatically. This is apparent in illustrations, in the strapping arrangement (the arm is held vertically up the shield) and the way in which the shield is used, held straight in front of the body, with the curve around the body. This style of use makes the forearms vulnerable, and lo and behold, mail was extended to cover the forearms in the decade after the first appearance of deeply curved kite shields.

Cheers
Stephen

[Patrick Kelly]

[Chuck Russell]

its a lot picture book of hastings 2000. but has some good references all right there on teh same pages. know what i mean? like most/ if not all of the shield colors/designs are on 1 page. so no looking around in 10 different books.

[Geoff Freeman]

I now have a new question, this time related to the historical construction of Viking shields. I figured this would be a worthwhile discussion, as this is a thread about shields in general.

Now while it is certainly do-able to make a round Viking shield out of plywood, I was wanting to make one more like the shields from the Gokstad ship, with planks. I also am of the understanding that this method was more common than plywood. Is this correct?

Now, with this type of shield, how are the planks fitted to each other? Are the edges beveled at all, to fit together like a picture frame, and then banded with iron or steel strips on the back?

And thanks again for all the help. This thread has been very enlightening.

Geoff

[Chuck Russell]

i am not too sure about the inner bevelings or dowls/joints inbetween each of the boards... BUT i do know that the slats go horizontally, the handle is vertical and goes form top to bottom. there are 2 other vertical slim slats that go vertical. there is a iron, not so much rim, but an iron piece that semicircles the back of the shield. there is also suppsed to be a cover of leather on the front and a leather/hide/iron rim?