Hi all,
Glad to see the positive response to the new stuff.
Regarding the apparent size problems, I can say this: these are just concept drawings. The actual measurements and photos will be published as soon as the sword is complete. The drawings are only meant to give you an idea of what the sword will look like. Trust me, anything that is designed by Peter Johnsson will be "spot on" for an original. Like Nathan said, look at the type, purpose, and philosophy behind the sword. I promise these swords will not disappoint.
| Eric McHugh wrote: |
| Hi all,
Glad to see the positive response to the new stuff. Regarding the apparent size problems, I can say this: these are just concept drawings. The actual measurements and photos will be published as soon as the sword is complete. The drawings are only meant to give you an idea of what the sword will look like. Trust me, anything that is designed by Peter Johnsson will be "spot on" for an original. Like Nathan said, look at the type, purpose, and philosophy behind the sword. I promise these swords will not disappoint. |
I'm sure they'll each be excellent representations of original types. I can understand Gordon expressing a 'picky' point though. I suppose it says a lot about the reputation that Albion have already established that many people are prepared to put down a substantial deposit, some six or seven months in advance, on the basis non-scale concept drawings and uncertain measurements (e.g. the vikings changed by over 20% in weight in their final forms from the original guesses) .
As I've said elsewhere, I'm not currently in a position to buy, so my opinions are rather academic, and I think I still would if I could, even given these uncertainties, but a small part of me is glad that I'll have to wait for more solid information. I hope this doesn't make me the spectre at the feast, but Internet buying has turned round and bitten me a couple of times already.
Geoff
"Regarding the apparent size problems, I can say this: these are just concept drawings. "
I did go back this morning and take another look at the "pixels per inch" and made some adjustments -- because of the strangeness of Photoshop and Dreamweaver, these can only ever be approximates, but I *think* they are much closer to scale now -- please feel free to point out any inconsistencies (it is early and the coffee has not kicked in...) Any mistakes are entirely my fault when setting up the page.
As to the Viking weight issue -- calculations based on wax models and unground blades to determine final mounted weight is also always a bit of a wild guess. When in doubt, we tend to be a bit over conservative. Plus, these blades were of a quite different design than we had done before -- a lot of the subtleties that Peter built into them made more of a difference with the weight than we had anticipated. Peter's weight estimates for the new swords are probably a lot closer to what the final will be than ours were on the Vikings.
Best,
Howy
Albion
I did go back this morning and take another look at the "pixels per inch" and made some adjustments -- because of the strangeness of Photoshop and Dreamweaver, these can only ever be approximates, but I *think* they are much closer to scale now -- please feel free to point out any inconsistencies (it is early and the coffee has not kicked in...) Any mistakes are entirely my fault when setting up the page.
As to the Viking weight issue -- calculations based on wax models and unground blades to determine final mounted weight is also always a bit of a wild guess. When in doubt, we tend to be a bit over conservative. Plus, these blades were of a quite different design than we had done before -- a lot of the subtleties that Peter built into them made more of a difference with the weight than we had anticipated. Peter's weight estimates for the new swords are probably a lot closer to what the final will be than ours were on the Vikings.
Best,
Howy
Albion
I think the XVI's look much better now. Peter described them as "big" swords, I think, and they just did not look it before.
I do realize they were concept sketches, but a picture almost always wins out over a description in one's mind.
It is amazing what an inch or two does to a sword - the picture for the Henry V from A&A was off (may still be?) in the comparison tool because of A&A posting the wrong size on the page. It (in my mind) turned a rather beefy sword into something that looked pretty dainty.
Gordon
I do realize they were concept sketches, but a picture almost always wins out over a description in one's mind.
It is amazing what an inch or two does to a sword - the picture for the Henry V from A&A was off (may still be?) in the comparison tool because of A&A posting the wrong size on the page. It (in my mind) turned a rather beefy sword into something that looked pretty dainty.
Gordon
I just reserved a Viceroy. It's going to be exciting to see the new swords develop over the coming months.
I've narrowed it down from seven to three swords -
The Castellan XVa
The Prince XVI
The Viceroy XXa
I'm not a big fan of XVa's, but there is something about the Castellan design that really calls out to me.
The Castellan XVa
The Prince XVI
The Viceroy XXa
I'm not a big fan of XVa's, but there is something about the Castellan design that really calls out to me.
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
|
For those that are pre-ordering, one must have a bit of faith in the abilities of the designers and makers at Albion. The sketches and preliminary guesstimates of weight and other specs are not going to tell all at this point. In my opinion, and this goes to all you stats guys: you'll get more by studying the descriptions of the type of sword, the intended purpose of the sword, and the design philosophy behind each model. These things each speak volumes. |
Nathan -- I wholeheartedly agree. However, without some basic stats to accompany the drawings, it would be pretty difficult to reserve a sword that will ultimately cost as much as these will. Personally, the stats that Albion provided didn't cause me to reserve "the Squire." It was the combination of the drawing, the knowledge of the sword's length (enough to tell me that their version will be on the longer side for this type), the blade width (nice and wide!), and Albion’s reputation that gave me the confidence to make a reservation.
What I find truly extraordinary is the level of response to a simple set of drawings and promises. Would any of us have reserved an expensive sword, sight unseen, with a fairly nebulous delivery date, from any other maker in the business? I think not. But we all know that these swords are being designed by Peter Johnsson (so they will be as historically accurate as possible for a production sword) and we know of Albion's reputation for attention to detail and first-rate construction and customer service. The amazingly positive response these swords are getting is a testament to the company's leadership and vision.
The only item I'm concerned about is the sheer number of new sword designs that Albion is tackling. They're going to have to produce 13 new designs in 6-7 months. That's over three times the number in their previous line of NextGen swords (4 types) in half the time (based on an their first hint of new designs and PJ on 2-21-03)! Knowing that the Albionites won't release a sword until it's absolutely perfect, how confident is Albion of actually meeting their self-imposed deadline of June 2004? I don't mean to pick on Albion. As I was telling Mike last week, I work with the Pentagon so schedule slips are standard operating procedure around here. Personally, I expect things to be late so I won't mind. :D I'm just wondering if Albion feels confident about meeting their admittedly ambitious deadlines they've set for themselves. Also, what kinds of challenges will they have to overcome in the development and production of these new swords?
--Steve
| Stephen Pearson wrote: | ||
Nathan -- I wholeheartedly agree. However, without some basic stats to accompany the drawings, it would be pretty difficult to reserve a sword that will ultimately cost as much as these will. Personally, the stats that Albion provided didn't cause me to reserve "the Squire." It was the combination of the drawing, the knowledge of the sword's length (enough to tell me that their version will be on the longer side for this type), the blade width (nice and wide!), and Albion’s reputation that gave me the confidence to make a reservation. What I find truly extraordinary is the level of response to a simple set of drawings and promises. Would any of us have reserved an expensive sword, sight unseen, with a fairly nebulous delivery date, from any other maker in the business? I think not. But we all know that these swords are being designed by Peter Johnsson (so they will be as historically accurate as possible for a production sword) and we know of Albion's reputation for attention to detail and first-rate construction and customer service. The amazingly positive response these swords are getting is a testament to the company's leadership and vision. The only item I'm concerned about is the sheer number of new sword designs that Albion is tackling. They're going to have to produce 13 new designs in 6-7 months. That's over three times the number in their previous line of NextGen swords (4 types) in half the time (based on an their first hint of new designs and PJ on 2-21-02)! Knowing that the Albionites won't release a sword until it's absolutely perfect, how confident is Albion of actually meeting their self-imposed deadline of June 2004? I don't mean to pick on Albion. As I was telling Mike last week, I work with the Pentagon so schedule slips are standard operating procedure around here. Personally, I expect things to be late so I won't mind. :D I'm just wondering if Albion feels confident about meeting their admittedly ambitious deadlines they've set for themselves. Also, what kinds of challenges will they have to overcome in the development and production of these new swords? --Steve |
Hey Steve!
Thanks for the kind words -- and the very valid concerns.
We feel confident in the June date becuse a lot of the ground work has been done already. The designs are complete from Peter, one blade is programmed and the others are in line to follow one after another within the next few weeks.
We tried this approach with the NextGen Gaddhjalt (which was the last sword in the first four to be designed and the first completed). That took us just eight weeks from drawing to approved prototype/production. So, I am actually hoping (gods willing and the creek don't rise) that the last of this run of 13 swords will be completed in June -- with the others released much, much earlier. The Museum Line has taken a long time because of issues that developed in design and production, but solving those issues has made us faster and hopefully smarter. It proved itself out with the Gaddhjlat, and I am hoping that these will follow that pattern.
Only time will tell...
Best,
Howy
Steve raises a good point about Albion's confidence in meeting the proposed production schedule but I think most people may not be aware of where Albion is on the learning curve with this whole thing. The first collaboration between Peter and Albion probably took longer than they expected because they needed to work the whole process out. Peter and Steve Fisher needed to learn to "talk the same language" for Peter's designs to be translated into CNC programs. Eric, Jason, and the rest needed to develop the production techniques that would allow them to bring Peter's designs to completion. Now that they have all gone through that learning phase, any new designs should be realized much more quickly than before.
Steve,
Another factor to consider is that some of the swords share blades: Prince & Squire, Ritter & Count, and Norman & Gaddhjalt (probably requiring some reprogramming to shorten). So, of 13 total MNG swords there are really 10 blades to do.
It should also be pointed out that Albion has a record of meeting or exceeding customer expectations. Case in point, I believe that the Viking NGs more than live up to the preliminary "concept art" designs released by Albion. If anything they look better than the concept art designs, and judging from this and other boards customers have responded to that.
Brian M
Another factor to consider is that some of the swords share blades: Prince & Squire, Ritter & Count, and Norman & Gaddhjalt (probably requiring some reprogramming to shorten). So, of 13 total MNG swords there are really 10 blades to do.
It should also be pointed out that Albion has a record of meeting or exceeding customer expectations. Case in point, I believe that the Viking NGs more than live up to the preliminary "concept art" designs released by Albion. If anything they look better than the concept art designs, and judging from this and other boards customers have responded to that.
Brian M
| Brian M wrote: |
| Steve,
Another factor to consider is that some of the swords share blades: Prince & Squire, Ritter & Count, and Norman & Gaddhjalt (probably requiring some reprogramming to shorten). So, of 13 total MNG swords there are really 10 blades to do. It should also be pointed out that Albion has a record of meeting or exceeding customer expectations. Case in point, I believe that the Viking NGs more than live up to the preliminary "concept art" designs released by Albion. If anything they look better than the concept art designs, and judging from this and other boards customers have responded to that. Brian M |
Brian:
Don't get me wrong -- I fully expect Albion to exceed my expectations on the Squire! I was just pointing out that Albion has set itself quite an ambitious task in developing and producing so many new designs in such a short time. Howy's comments, however, have put my fears to rest. It sounds like they've ironed out most of the design difficulties through their work on the Gaddhjlat and the Museum Line. Also, Howy implied that they won't be releasing all the swords in a single group (similar to the NextGen Vikings) but as each one reaches the 'approved prototype / initial production' stage. Which is great to know, especially from a personal budgeting standpoint! :cool:
Probably going to have to make sure my funding is in order a little bet sooner...... :surprised:
--Steve
Speaking of the same blades -- here's a fun question. (Yes, I do believe this is fun stuff).
Because the Ritter and the Count use the same blade - does this mean that the blade is made with a long tang originally and then fitted as a single hander on the Ritter? Seems to me that's the only way it could be done. Fascinating...
The Count is very high on my list by the way.
I never considered the Viking weights "an issue" really.
As far as being a "stat" guy. I know many stats don't really matter. If I had a wish, there would be one stat that I would ask for. It's a stat that is available on existing sword (swords already in production -- if that's the right term), but not yet available on these.
Going back to the Count & Ritter... regarding the chicken or the egg question (which came first?) I think The Count came first. At least that is my hope as I favor The Count.
To ask the question in terms of handling -- if you were to hold The Count with one hand, how would it handle compared to The Ritter? Perhaps the answer would be too subtle to be able to convey properly.
Because the Ritter and the Count use the same blade - does this mean that the blade is made with a long tang originally and then fitted as a single hander on the Ritter? Seems to me that's the only way it could be done. Fascinating...
The Count is very high on my list by the way.
I never considered the Viking weights "an issue" really.
As far as being a "stat" guy. I know many stats don't really matter. If I had a wish, there would be one stat that I would ask for. It's a stat that is available on existing sword (swords already in production -- if that's the right term), but not yet available on these.
Going back to the Count & Ritter... regarding the chicken or the egg question (which came first?) I think The Count came first. At least that is my hope as I favor The Count.
To ask the question in terms of handling -- if you were to hold The Count with one hand, how would it handle compared to The Ritter? Perhaps the answer would be too subtle to be able to convey properly.
| Manny G wrote: |
| Speaking of the same blades -- here's a fun question. (Yes, I do believe this is fun stuff).
Because the Ritter and the Count use the same blade - does this mean that the blade is made with a long tang originally and then fitted as a single hander on the Ritter? Seems to me that's the only way it could be done. Fascinating... The Count is very high on my list by the way. I never considered the Viking weights "an issue" really. As far as being a "stat" guy. I know many stats don't really matter. If I had a wish, there would be one stat that I would ask for. It's a stat that is available on existing sword (swords already in production -- if that's the right term), but not yet available on these. Going back to the Count & Ritter... regarding the chicken or the egg question (which came first?) I think The Count came first. At least that is my hope as I favor The Count. To ask the question in terms of handling -- if you were to hold The Count with one hand, how would it handle compared to The Ritter? Perhaps the answer would be too subtle to be able to convey properly. |
Hi,
as far as chickens and eggs go: I´m sorry, but the Ritter came first :D
Then we had quite some discussions, Eric and I when plans on using this hilt combination first was brought up: wether to make a long gripped one or a single hand (the hilt used for the Count, that is). Good arguments for both cases was found. We ended up deciding for the long gripped version. I am really looking forward to start working with this blade, making the waxes for the Ritter and the Count.
The blades for the Ritter and the Count will differ in tang length only: one version will be made with a short tang, another with a long tang. The blade specs will be the same.
Handling the Count with one hand: -Well, that is certainly possible as it also will be pretty light. With a grip length of around 16.5 cm it is not so long that the pommel will be too much in the way, but still not so short it will cramp your hands in a two handed use (You´ll normally partly grasp the pommel, I´d think). With the long gripped version I intend to do the most I can with the placing of the pivot points. With a shorter grip on the sword, there is less to play with when it comes to pivot poits, but you also use the sword in another way: more full swings with more use of the wrist.
The Count will be quicker in the turn than the Ritter; this is a benefit long gripped swords will have over single handed swords in most cases. Both will be responsive swords, but the longer grip on the Count will give a tighter controll (with two handed use). Long bladed single hand swords have this character of reaching out far away from you, if you understand what I mean. They are typically used in big sweeping blows. A long gripped sword can be wielded closer to the body and still deliver powerful blows.
A longish grip will always invite two hand use, however quick, responsive and agile the sword is, just because of its length. It just feels better to make use of it that way.
I´m no swordsman, though... ;)
After seeing an unmounted blade in the Imperial armouries in Wienna, I was inspired by the thought that some swords might have been delivered to the cutler with a tang length long enough for him to decide ether to make it inot a single hander or a long gripped one. (or save that desicion for the customer to make)
This blade is published in "Records" on page 114 (XIIIb.5).
Oakeshott says about this:
"This beautiful blade has clearly ever been mounted, nor used. This accounts for the extremely long tang (my note: it is around 50 cm long, on a blade that is 98 cm!), for it is obviously how the blade came from the blade smith, so that it could be hilted as a XIII, or a long gripped warsword of XIIIa, or a single hand XIIIb."
(my note: at 98 cm blade length it would be a pretty imposing single hand sword, but you do see big ones like that some times.)
When you say that you and Eric had discussed whether to produce the Count as a Type-XIIIa or the shorter version, are you talking XIII, or XIIIb for the shorter option? How much shorter would the hilt be if the Count was produced as a XIII and not a XIIIa? Perhaps we will see a Type-XIII sometime in the future?
Brian M
Brian M
Wow! Truly fascinating Peter... Ha ha ha :lol: I guess I was just hoping the Count came into being first :) On the other hand, that makes the Ritter all the more impressive with such a blade.
Your description of the Count makes me really want that one. I'm glad it will get the full treatment to make it handle well.
The Count is my 2nd choice, and so I guess I must say what my first choice is... And that is The Castellan (how is that pronounced?) I've always wanted an XV(a) type although I've never handled one. This makes it tough for me to choose between the two. Stick with the more familiar XIIIa or try the later XVa style... This will be a tough choice.
These two along with my first choice, The Landgraf are all two-handers or hand & a-half.
Faced with such a choice, I will wait a little longer for inspiration... :)
Your description of the Count makes me really want that one. I'm glad it will get the full treatment to make it handle well.
The Count is my 2nd choice, and so I guess I must say what my first choice is... And that is The Castellan (how is that pronounced?) I've always wanted an XV(a) type although I've never handled one. This makes it tough for me to choose between the two. Stick with the more familiar XIIIa or try the later XVa style... This will be a tough choice.
These two along with my first choice, The Landgraf are all two-handers or hand & a-half.
Faced with such a choice, I will wait a little longer for inspiration... :)
Manny,
Just order both and be done with it :D
James
Just order both and be done with it :D
James
| Brian M wrote: |
| When you say that you and Eric had discussed whether to produce the Count as a Type-XIIIa or the shorter version, are you talking XIII, or XIIIb for the shorter option? How much shorter would the hilt be if the Count was produced as a XIII and not a XIIIa? Perhaps we will see a Type-XIII sometime in the future?
Brian M |
We were thinking wether to mount it as a XIIIb or a XIIIa. To mount the blade of the Ritter/Count as a XIII would not be the best choise, I think. It is a fair bit slimmer than the typical XIII. With a longer than usual hilt, but still shorter than a full hand and a half it might then just look like a strangely proportioned single hander. With a long grip as a XIIIa it is a slim and agile version of the type.
As a single hander it is a big sword, but there are those that are bigger. The original that was the inspiration for the Ritter in the Historical museum in Berlin is a full 4 inches longer in the blade. Swords of that size are truly impressive, but I suspect you´d really have to have a horse beneath you to make such a weapon full justice...
The type XIII´s are classified as having hilts longer than 10 cm but typically shorter than 15 cm (That is somewhere around 4.5 to slightly shorter than 5 inches)
...Also, the type XIII is too good to make a half hearted attempt at: That type demands your full attention and a bold attitude :D They should be big and broad and bold and no compromises! The pitbulls of swords.... :cool:
think you mean slightly shorter than 6 inches .........
| Geoff Wood wrote: |
| think you mean slightly shorter than 6 inches ......... |
Ahh..yes (*slaps head*)
-too many conversions metric/inches and too many late nights of late.
Sorry about that :)
...I might need a little pause: sit down to read a good book for a while... (no swords, no metric conversions) ;)
actually, I think that is just what I´m going to do right now!
Mr. Johnsson,
Thanks for explaining that. Has it been decided yet which swords of the 13 MNGs will be realized first?
Regards,
Brian M
Thanks for explaining that. Has it been decided yet which swords of the 13 MNGs will be realized first?
Regards,
Brian M
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