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David White




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: Historic weights for Basket-hilted Broadswords         Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Need some help here. On another forum, no not that forum, I was talking to a fella about weights of swords.
I said that some baskethilted broadswords were in the 2 1/2 pound range. He said that he's used swords forever
and that was way to heavy for a "single hander" WTF?! Can anyone give me references for weights of baskethilted swords.

thanks so much,

dave

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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think they were generally a bit heavier than that, actually. Paul Wanger says 2.6 to 2.9 pounds in his book on George Silver. Many replicas with compex hilts get up to 3 pounds, such the A&A Town Guard Sword and some of the Armour Class baskethilts.
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David White




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
I think they were generally a bit heavier than that, actually. Paul Wanger says 2.6 to 2.9 pounds in his book on George Silver. Many replicas with compex hilts get up to 3 pounds, such the A&A Town Guard Sword and some of the Armour Class baskethilts.


Hi Benjamin!

that sounds pretty much right on, I'm sure (maybe Mac can help out), that some are in the range I posted above.
I'm just alitttle miffed at being told that b-h broadswords ie, single handed (by the other poster and another site) are much lighter. I posted twice, stating b-h boardsword/backsword and it just didn't seem to sink in.
He seems to be an "expert" after many years of using all types of swords. I just don't buy what he's saying.
thanks,

dave

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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Need Help! Historic weights Baskethilted Broadswords         Reply with quote

David White wrote:


...Can anyone give me references for weights of baskethilted swords.

thanks so much,

dave


Hi Dave...

A while back I plotted the sword weights I could find in publications. I have plotted the data from lightest to heaviest to show the range (this throws some people off because they want to see groupings) However in this configuration you can more easily see the maximum and minimum weight and where the line levels out in the middle represents the median weight for that group.

It looks as though the median for baskethilts is around 2.5 pounds.

For what its worth...

ks



 Attachment: 74.9 KB
Sword-Weight-Chart.jpg


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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, that's strange. Even without a baskethilt many single handed swords were 2.5 pounds or more. If someone asked me what the standard weight of a singe handed sword was, I'd probably answer that it was about 2.5 pounds.

EDIT: Whoa, interesting graph. I'd love to see the 1.2 pound or the 4.5 pound baskethilt - though I sure wouldn't want either one in a fight.
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:


...I'd love to see the 1.2 pound or the 4.5 pound baskethilt...



Here you go...

From George C. Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution"

ks



 Attachment: 82.56 KB
SBH.Ovoid.L96bl81w32wt590.HorsemanSaber1750.SBAR.jpg
English Horseman Saber c.1750 Length 37.75 inches, Blade Length 32 inches Blade Width 1.25 inches. Weight 1.3 pounds

 Attachment: 84.98 KB
SBH.Mushroom.L114bl98w36wt1996.EnglishHorsemanSaber1755.SBAR.jpg
English Horseman Saber c.1755 Length 45 inches, Blade length 38.25 inches, Blade Width 1.4 inches, Weight 4.4 pounds

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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting. I couldn't tell by looking at them which was heavier and which was lighter! The basket is clearly more robust on the heavier one, though. What a range...
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I handled a sword identical to the second "English Horseman's Saber" -- Actually a Backsword, by Samuel Harvey. It was intended for service, for actual battlefield use. And yet it felt like a boat anchor. One of the worst handling antique swords I've ever handled. Heavy and dead in the hand.
But I'd say most antique basket hilt swords I've handled have averaged around 2.5 lbs -- some heavier, some lighter.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
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Last edited by David Wilson on Tue 04 Oct, 2005 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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E.B. Erickson
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

2.5lbs average basket weight is probably close... I think Vince Evans came up with a similar figure at one time on an old SFI thread.

Antique baskets I've handled have ranged from one that's just under 2 lbs (1.8 or 1.9 lbs) to one that's right about 3 lbs.

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the fun of it .....

34 examples (in Neumann's book) have a combined weight of 76.7 lbs. which would average out at 2.2558 lbs. apiece !

1 @ 1.3
1 @ 1.8
5 @ 2.0
7 @ 2.1
2 @ 2.3
5 @ 2.4
2 @ 2.5
4 @ 2.6
2 @ 2.8
3 @ 3.0
1 @ 3.1
1 @ 4.4
_______

34 @ 76.7 lbs.

I stink at math, so feel free to shoot holes in my tally ;-) Mac

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David White




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi guys,

thanks so much for all the help. I knew that I wasn't a dummy and I'd done my homework!
I just wanted to double check before continuing my conversation with this fella.

Hey Mac, whats the name of Neumann's book.

thanks,

dave

I can't believe one weighted in at 1.3#

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David White wrote:
Hey Mac, whats the name of Neumann's book.

Kirk mentioned it above: George C. Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution"

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David White




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

duh, thanks Nathan Blush

dave

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

L to R : 2.5 lbs., 1 lb. 8-1/2 oz., 3 lbs. 2-3/4 oz. (blade shortened sum 6" inches +/-)


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BH 27.JPG


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Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Wed 05 Oct, 2005 6:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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David White




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow! thanks Mac-
Those photos do give you a pretty good perspective on weights. do you know if its mainly the blade or hilt or
a combination of both?

thanks,

dave

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David White wrote:
Wow! thanks Mac-
Those photos do give you a pretty good perspective on weights. do you know if its mainly the blade or hilt or
a combination of both? thanks, dave


Hi Dave

I've never weighed the individual components on these pieces but my guess would be that the weight is fairly distributed between blade & hilt, albeit in large, medium, & small !
The horseman basket is a good sized piece of steel, but so is the blade that's mounted to it (ie: thick ).
The 19th century basket is very light, with its elements being very thin, but , again, so is the blade !
The early 'Irish' hilt is the nicest of the 3, with both blade & hilt being very proportionate to each other, feeling & handling like someone really knew their stuff (sword making-wise ;-)

Mac

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mac!

Pretty much what I thought. The horseman basket/blade does look thick. I've been away for awhile so I'll just
ask, are those yours now?

thanks,

dave

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Dave

Yer welcome, laddie !

Aye, they be caretaker Mac's !
I picked up the Irish hilted backsword via Rob at Lion Gate Arms & Armour,Inc..
The 19th century 'Regimental' broadsword via Freeman Auction House, during one of their "live auctions" on Ebay !
The English horseman backsword was an Ebay grab !

Mac

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few more ....

Mac



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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add a few more mean & lean baskethilts to the mix ....

Awhile back, Vince had sent me some weight figures on a few original Scottish baskethilts that a friend had let him study !
They weighed in at :

2 lbs. 7-1/4 oz.(Stirling hilt broadsword)
2 lbs. 1-1/4 oz.(Stirling hilt broadsword)
1 lb. 15-1/2 oz. (Stirling S-hilt broadsword)
2 lbs. - 1/2 oz. (Stirling backsword)
And an original WAS broadsword at approx. 2 lbs. 10-3/4 oz. ( figuring about 2 oz. for grip & capstan)

Mac

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