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Austin Demshar
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 Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: Right handed |
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Right handed bow means that you hold the bow with your left hand and draw the arrow back with your right, right ?
by the way im thinking of doing this
the longbow #2 hickory glass backed bow for $100 bucks plus a $5 arm guard, free stringer and then ill get some arrows. Seems to be all i need for now.
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Jeff Hsieh
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner bower (not even) |
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| Pamela Muir wrote: |
Please pardon some very basic questions. What are the differences between a composite bow, a recurve bow, a longbow, and a flatbow? |
Hello,
A composite bow is a bow made out of two or more different materials. My archery instructor has a Mongol composite horsebow made from leather and several types of wood. I think my bamboo/ipe bow also counts as a composite bow.
A recurve is a bow with tips that curve away from the archer when strung. This gives the string an extra "snap" on release, which increases arrow speed. This is also used to refer specifically to modern recurves.
Most people call any simple wood bow a longbow, but a longbow is actually a specific type of wooden bow. It is very tall and has a D-shaped cross section.
A flatbow is a bow with flat limbs.
This site: www.ancientarchery.com lays it all out in great detail, you should take a look. I can't really help you with your other questions, as I'm lucky enough to have a local instructor.
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your help, advice and comments. This is getting even more interesting than I thought! And the pictures of some of those bows have me swooning.
I admit that I'm really intimidated at the thought of 100-150 pound draws. Wow. That's close to and over what I weigh! (No, as a lady, I did not reveal my weight, only that it is somewhere in that range.  )
I've got another Cub Scout event this weekend that is supposed to include archery with Scout certified instructors. I'm not sure what "certified" means beyond safety training, but hopefully I'll have the chance to bombard them with questions and take a few shots myself. Whether or not I get the chance to stand still long enough to ask questions is anyone's guess. Managing Cub Scouts is like transporting frogs in a wheel barrow. 
| Daniel Parry wrote: | | I've been to Sherwood Forest, Pamela, and to be honest -lots of sharp twigs and pine needles on the ground - might want to rethink that one |
Really, Daniel? No Robin Hood? No Errol Flynn?  Sigh.
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Eric Nower
Location: Upstate NY Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | That's interesting Eric, so what your saying (as i interpret) with the fluid motion is that the archer would sight his target and focus aim before drawing the bow ? Then draw and loose in a fluid motion ?
Daniel |
That's how I was taught, one fluid motion, you get used to the ranges after time and practice
| Quote: | Right handed bow means that you hold the bow with your left hand and draw the arrow back with your right, right ?
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Yup you got it
May God have mercy on my enemies, for I shall have none.
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Michael P Smith
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Any experience with this one from Rudderbows?
http://rudderbows.com/ENGLISHLONGBOWEPE.html
I like the look of it. Years ago I was heavily into archery but haven't shot in years. These types of discussions make me tempted to take it up again. |
He makes good shooters by reputations, but they are not really medieval, if that's what you're looking for. If you want a medieval-looking bow, look for one that doesn't have a built up riser (handle section). For truley medieval constriuction, you want it to be a self bow (not laminated or "backed") but a modern laminated bow will usually be cheaper than a good self-bow.
Avoid the cheapies (woodbows.com) if you want to shoot seriously, though they are good if you want to dabble or get started cheaply. They tend to have a lot of hand shock and aren;t much fun to shoot for long periods.
Mike
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mike,
I'm not really considering going the full medieval route. If I were to make a purchase it would mainly be for recreational shooting. I emphasize the "if" becuase I already have enough time consuming projects going and this may fall into the "Just one more thing I don't really need" catagory. So a decent longbow at an affordble price is what I would need.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: gave in to temptation |
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Well, I succumbed to one of my fantasies and finally ordered my English longbow. It should be here in about 9 weeks!
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: Re: gave in to temptation |
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| Pamela Muir wrote: | | Well, I succumbed to one of my fantasies and finally ordered my English longbow. It should be here in about 9 weeks! |
Looking forward to hearing about it. I did some " casual " archery a long time ago and although not a marksman I could keep the arrows on the target.
With modern bows: The pulley kind at fairly low draw weight 50 pounds or so and a holding weight of around 25 pounds due to the pulley, there is a tendency to only roughly aim on the draw and to really start concentrating on the target at full draw and using bow sights to line up the shot.
I did some of this kind of shooting but I also experimented with an 80 recurve and with that you had to start aiming from the start and holding before release only meant a lot of wobbling.
I'm left handed but I tried using a right handed bow left handed using an oriental thumb release: It worked by the way !
The arrow then is on the opposite side of the bow than with a Western bow and this is why the wrong handed bow works.
I should try shooting that 80 pounder again and see how difficult the draw weight seem now: All my archery was years before I did any weight training, so a 100 pound bow might be possible for me now. ( I have in the past done one arm dumbbell rows from 120 to 140 for reps and managed at one time 160 pounds. ) ( Sorry, a little bragging.   )
I would think that doing one arm dumbbell rows would be one of the best exercises to build up draw weight strength. And by doing it with both arms would avoid the strength imbalance of only getting stronger with one arm if one only increase one's strength by actual archery practice..
Bench presses or pushups are also good training for the other arm that pushes out the bow or at least holds it out there.
Archery can be like throwing a ball accurately when done without modern aids to aiming like bow sights that resemble more the skill of aiming with a firearm: Most of the aiming, after lots of practice is done subconsciously by the brain and concentration on the target almost seems to be willing the arrow to the center of the target.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: gave in to temptation |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Looking forward to hearing about it. I did some " casual " archery a long time ago and although not a marksman I could keep the arrows on the target. |
I've only done very casual shooting myself, all at scouting events within the last year. But there is something about the "twang...thunk!" that is almost as sensual and thrilling as the "clang" of steel on steel.
| Jean wrote: | | With modern bows: The pulley kind at fairly low draw weight 50 pounds or so and a holding weight of around 25 pounds due to the pulley, there is a tendency to only roughly aim on the draw and to really start concentrating on the target at full draw and using bow sights to line up the shot. |
This is just personal preference, but I don't like the look of compound bows at all. My boys (husband and sons) think they are cool, but they make me shudder. They just don't seem right.
| Jean wrote: | | I'm left handed but I tried using a right handed bow left handed using an oriental thumb release: It worked by the way ! The arrow then is on the opposite side of the bow than with a Western bow and this is why the wrong handed bow works. |
As I understand it, which eye you use is much more important than your hand. I am extremely right eyed and far sighted. I am hoping the far sighted part will be an advantage.
| Jean wrote: | | I should try shooting that 80 pounder again and see how difficult the draw weight seem now: All my archery was years before I did any weight training, so a 100 pound bow might be possible for me now. ( I have in the past done one arm dumbbell rows from 120 to 140 for reps and managed at one time 160 pounds. ) ( Sorry, a little bragging. ) |
Oooooh. (Admires biceps and pecs.) My bow will only be in the 30-35# range at 28 inches. I wanted something a little "manlier", but after a few email exchanges with rudderbows and other folks offering advice, the consensus was that I should go with something I was comfortable with as I was much more likely to shoot well and enjoy it from the very beginning. As such, the 30 lbs. is probably much more than the Cub Scout bows I've used.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Archery can be like throwing a ball accurately when done without modern aids to aiming like bow sights that resemble more the skill of aiming with a firearm: Most of the aiming, after lots of practice is done subconsciously by the brain and concentration on the target almost seems to be willing the arrow to the center of the target. |
That could give me trouble. I throw like a girl.
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Florian H.
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | That's interesting Eric, so what your saying (as i interpret) with the fluid motion is that the archer would sight his target and focus aim before drawing the bow ? Then draw and loose in a fluid motion ?
Daniel |
Speaking of this technique, anyone who has any interest in archery whatsoever owes it to him/herself to watch at least one Howard Hill video. This is the technique that Howard used, and, after seeing him in action, it's pretty hard to argue that any other style should be used (despite some continuing argument in the archery community)! 
On another note, one thing I can't stress enough is that one should NEVER overbow oneself. By overbow I mean buying/using a bow that has too heavy a draw weight. I own two Howard Hill bows: my hunting bow is 48#@26", and my "fun" bow is 30#@26" (yes, I have a short draw ). Neither one is near my absolute strength limit, but I can shoot either one all day and with great accuracy. And, yes, traditional bows in the 45-50# range (with a suitably weighted and tipped arrow) are capable of taking pretty much any game animal on the North American continent, so they're plenty effective. I would probably exclude only the grizzly and the buffalo, but I wouldn't want to hunt either one of those with ANY kind of bow anyway!
As far as bow construction, fibergalss backing adds a tremendous amount of strength to any traditionally styled bow. I would HIGHLY recommend that anybody considering buying a bow, especially a selfbow (one made of a single piece of wood), go with the glass backing. If done in clear satin, like my 30# Hill, the glass is basically invisible, so don't worry about the aesthetics of it. 
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ="G. Scott H."On another note, one thing I can't stress enough is that one should NEVER overbow oneself. |
Oh, I agree for enjoyment and very much when learning how to shoot using a low to medium draw weight is the way to go.
For a practical bow for practice even the 80 pound one is probably too much if I got back into it. ( At least at first. )
The thing with the 100 pound + bows would be just very interesting to try one out and see just how high a weight I could use and retain some minimum accuracy with.
As mentioned weight of draw is not as important as how fast a bow gets the arrow moving: A 80 pound bow that gives you 180 feet / second is better than 120 pound bow that gives you the same speed of arrow of the same weight of draw.
There are two types of lowbows that I think I would want in a traditional looking one: One would be one made exactly like a period bow and one that would " look " period but might still be of composite construction to take full advantage of the greater efficiency of modern materials. ( And maybe more durable )
The compound bows with all the "gizmos " attached you either love or hate as shooting tools but I also prefer the more instinctive style of shooting.
Note: Pamela when shooting a bow or a firearm I keep both eyes open but I do aim with my master eye.
Oh, in case it was confusing: I was using a bow intended for right hand use but the same way I would a left handed bow with my right hand holding the bow. The arrow not crossing over to the other side of the bow but on the arrow holder on the left side of the bow: This would not work at all with a western finger draw but with the eastern thumb draw, the thumb is hooked over the the bow string and is locked in place by the forefinger over the thumb. To release the arrow the fore finger is removed from the thumb at the same time the thumb is relaxed. Usually a special thumb ring is on the thumb in the same way that a leather tab is used for the fingers in western archery.
The whole thing was just an experiment with oriental style arrow release and to do this I had to use the wrong " for me " sided bow.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Pamela Muir
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Note: Pamela when shooting a bow or a firearm I keep both eyes open but I do aim with my master eye.
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LOL! I guess I wasn't very clear. Of course, I meant to keep both eyes open. I've been told that, just like with fireams, which eye is dominant is more important than which hand is dominant.
Pamela Muir
Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts
"I need a hero. I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night. He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight." ~Steinman/Pitchford
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Pamela Muir wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Note: Pamela when shooting a bow or a firearm I keep both eyes open but I do aim with my master eye.
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LOL! I guess I wasn't very clear. Of course, I meant to keep both eyes open. I've been told that, just like with firearms, which eye is dominant is more important than which hand is dominant. |
We completely agree then. 
Oh, and I have a trick were I can change to my other eye and aline the sights: This give me double vision but I can ignore the image from my master eye and use the NOT-Master eye on the sight. It like my brain switching priority of input voluntarily.
One use for this was when using a T.V. camera on my right shoulder: All the eye pieces are meant for people using their right eye. Unfortunately my master eye is my left eye and it's impossible to get that eye behind the eye piece.
So, I would use my left eye for situational awareness ( Not looking at the camera image ), find what I was going to shoot and then switch to my right " NON-Master eye to frame up the camera shot.
Could do the same in reverse with a rifle scope.
It's sometimes good to be a " genetic mutant anomaly " a LEFT HANDER
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Tue 21 Mar, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Quote: | | ="G. Scott H."On another note, one thing I can't stress enough is that one should NEVER overbow oneself. |
Oh, I agree for enjoyment and very much when learning how to shoot using a low to medium draw weight is the way to go.
. |
Thanks, Jean. I should have mentioned that before. I was specifically talking about beginning and intermediate archers when I referred to overbowing. A dedicated person can build up enough strength over time to handle pretty heavy bows, but beginners often make the mistake of buying a bow that's way too heavy. They figure, "well, I can draw the sucker, so it's not too heavy.". If you're going to seriously practice, however, you need to be able to draw the bow many times in a row. I can draw a 70# longbow, but only a couple of times before my arms start shaking and I can't shoot worth a darn with it. So, 70# is too heavy for me at my current level of strength. For me, 45-50# is the max weight that I can draw comfortably and shoot accurately even if I go for several weeks or even months without shooting, so that's where I stay. My 30 pounder I can shoot seemingly forever without breaking a sweat (a very slight exaggeration ), so I can focus totally on my form.
One of THE main reasons people lose interest in archery over time is because they are overbowed and get discouraged as a result. Start small and work your way up to a level at which you feel comfortable.
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Jaroslav Petrina
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| Posted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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No archer draws and waits.Its a big no no! Especially with heavy bow. I m 5´ 3´´ tall, weigh only about 130# myself and I regulary shoot bow at about 100# at 32´´.
You draw and loose in one fluid motion as said.
When a big a muscled guy cannot do it, or achieve the drawlenght, it is because he doesnt know how to do it, or do it properly. Warbows are drawn and shot different way than smaller sporting bows.
Jaroslav
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Jaroslav Petrina
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| Posted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I should add this and this is the thing which people dont understand. Warbow doesnt carry light arrow further. It just carry very big and heavy arrow, which has ability to penetrate armour.
It is an oxen, not a horse.
Warbows are to be reliable, work in a very high degree of conditions and with minimal care.
This is the reason why all the warbows shoot about the same, longbows or composit bows.
Everytime discusion goes around some idiot draws out how turkish shoot over bospor. 800 meters or so. But none understand that it was using specialised sporting eqipment of the period, very light sporting arrow (perhaps 200 grain only) and under perfect conditions.
War arrows weight 3-4 ounces or up to 1500 grain.
Go figure.
Jaroslav
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaroslav Petrina wrote: | I should add this and this is the thing which people dont understand. Warbow doesnt carry light arrow further. It just carry very big and heavy arrow, which has ability to penetrate armour.
It is an oxen, not a horse.
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Thanks for this in formation and I think I can figure out why, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lets say one draws and releases a bow without an arrow. ( Not a good thing to do by the way as it stresses the bow. )
In this case there is no arrow to push and the bow string is going to move as fast as it ever will.
Now fire a light arrow for a warbow: This arrow will move only as fast as the string was moving at it's end of travel, this speed should be just a bit slower than the bow fired without an arrow. The energy transmitted to the arrow has to come from the string, thus the slowing down of the string. ( Firing too light an arrow in a powerful bow can be dangerous as the arrow can selfdestruct, this is just a theoretical mental experiment. )
A much heavier arrow, appropriate for a heavy bow, will be a little slower by a small amount but having much greater mass the loss of energy due to loosing only a few feet per second will be negligible compared to the higher energy / momentum of an arrow maybe twice as heavy or more.
If one increases the weight of arrows used the loss of speed eventually results in a loss of power / speed transmitted to the
arrow. ( A 20 pound arrow may have a lot of momentum but so little speed as to have much less kinetic energy, and will probably just travel a few feet ! A deliberately exaggerated ridiculous weight just to make a point, )
So for every draw weight of bow there is a narrow range of arrow weight that use the energy stored in the bow limbs efficiently: Too light an arrow doesn't move faster enough to be worth it, too heavy an arrow flies too slow.
The exact math for this I am not qualified to tell you and neither am I qualified as a bow expert: Others who are may be able to explain this better. ( Assuming I am right in principle )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | So for every draw weight of bow there is a narrow range of arrow weight that use the energy stored in the bow limbs efficiently: Too light an arrow doesn't move faster enough to be worth it, too heavy an arrow flies too slow.
The exact math for this I am not qualified to tell you and neither am I qualified as a bow expert: Others who are may be able to explain this better. ( Assuming I am right in principle ) |
An archery store owner and bowhunter named Vic Berkampas wrote in an article in Traditional Bowhunter magazine that he suggests between 12 and 14 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight for hunting. I have found this to be extremely effective myself. Out of my 48# longbow, I use a heavy maple shaft with a 160 grain broadhead that gives me a total arrow weight of around 660 grains, which is 13 3/4 grains per pound of draw weight (13.75 x 48=660). Out of a 100# longbow, this formula would give you arrows in the 1200-1400 grain range, which may be a tad heavy, but not unduly so. I think you could do pretty well using arrows that are between 10-12 grains per pound of draw.
Another consideration in buying a bow is that virtually every bow currently available is measured at a 28" draw length, so you'll see something like 45#@28" written on the side of the bow. This means that if you're draw length is 28", then you will be drawing 45#. For every inch you underdraw the bow, you lose between 2.5 and 3 # of draw weight. In other words, since I only have a 26" draw, if I were to shoot the aformentioned 45#@28" bow, I'd only be drawing between 39-40#. I don't know if the formula is the same for overdraw (i.e. you gain 2.5-3# per inch of overdraw?). Anyhow, it's a tradeoff: lighter arrows move faster and fly flatter as a result, while heavier arrows shoot with a more pronounced trajectory, but they penetrate better.
P.S. Here are my bows, strung and unstrung:
Not great pictures, but they get the idea across.
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Another important thing to remember with a bow is that it really isn't about arm strength. The main work is done by the back muscles. As has been pointed out, you don't shoot a warbow like many people shoot bows today with the left arm rigid and all the work done by the right arm and back. Rather, the English archers would shoot "in the bow", pushing out with the left arm at the same time as pulling with the back muscles through the right arm. Aiming was done instinctively, where you focus on the object you want to hit and your brain does the calculations automatically, like throwing a baseball. (Of course this skill, like throwing a baseball, can be improved with practice.) Thus, the release is almost instantaneous with the achieving of full draw.
On a side note. Steppe bows do function differently than longbows. Longbows "stack", that is the further you draw them back the heavier the draw weight feels. Steppe bows, however, because of the added leverage and camming action of the siyhas (the "ears"), remain at a much more constant draw weight and thus feel much lighter. For example, the 60lb steppe bow I shot felt as light or lighter than my 45lb recurve and shot the arrows at much faster speeds.
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