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Tyler Weaver
Location: Central New York Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 44
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 Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The way I encountered this rumor was that there were 9-12 official duels fought between the Portuguese and Samurai. The Portuguese won all except one, which was believed lost on account of 'excessive drunkenness.' According to the story, the dead fellow's superior officer engaged the Samurai in a duel on the following day, and defeated him out of hand.
Now, this has never been proven or disproven.
The story goes that this information is all in the Portuguese national archive, (which is huge) and was stumbled on by some student, who tells his friend.
His friend posts about it on the net, and asks the student to go get official copies from wherever in the archive he found it, and the student, (who isn't all that interested) promises to go back and get it eventually, but never does.
Legendary needle in a haystack stuff, but it could be true. Or it could be an urban legend. |
I'd be very wary of trusting anecdotal accounts, especially those floating around the Greatest Rumor Mill in All History, without sources. Things can get elaborated real easy, especially when agendas get involved. I've also heard rumors essentially turning the above situation around.
| Quote: | | In 1574, a group of wako (Sino-Japanese pirates) under the Chinese leader Lim-Ah-Hong and his Japanese partner, Sioco, attacked Spanish-held Manilla with 62 armed junks and about 4,000 warriors. They were ultimately defeated by a combined force of Spanish regulars and Pampangan mercenaries (there were usually comparatively few Spanish troops in the Philippines at any given time), under the command of Juan de Salzedo, the so-called "Cortez of the Philippines". Keep in mind that this was hardly a one-sided affair; the wako were well equipped with both arquebuses and even artillery for their ships (the Spanish initially thought they were under attack by a Portuguese squadron). There was plenty of HTH action too. A basic account of this action can be found in Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture. Detailed period Spanish accounts can be found in the 55-volume series, The Philippine Islands 1493-1898, edited by Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robinson. |
Interesting. I don't suppose you could post up an account of the battle?
It's also worth noting that the wako, though certainly scary enough as pirates, were probably markedly inferior in tactics and equipment to actual Japanese troops. The same Chinese armies that had managed to clear the coast of China of wako raiders in the 1580s were cut to pieces by the Japanese again and again during the Imjin War, even when they had a large numerical advantage - I don't think a Chinese army was ever successful in taking a Japanese-held fortification that was still being defended by its garrison, even when the wajo fortress was still well under construction!
| Quote: | | The incident took place in Nagasaki (in Jan. of 1610--my mistake), and started with difficulties between Pessoa and the local governor. This became more heated when it was learned that Pessoa--when he was governor of Macau--had killed a group of Japanese sailors there, only a few months before. Ieyasu then responded with an order to kill Pessoa and take his ship. |
Given that the Japanese were operating under "capture intact" orders, that goes a long way towards explaining the difficulty they experienced in taking Pessoa's ship - taking an aware Dutch East Indiaman-style ship from small boats is geneally a nonstarter, and it sounds as though the battle turned against the Portugese once the Japanese got serious. The initial raids after the first sound more like probing attacks to keep the galleon's crew on a knife's edge while preparations were made to storm the ship. Also, Pessoa neither fled nor took offensive action over a period of four days, which leads me to believe that he was "bottled up" in the harbor by Japanese shore batteries (of which there were many during the Edo period) and the Japanese could take their time. The Turkish navy, despite 50-to-1 superiority in galleys, was unable to stop several high sailing ships from getting into the Golden Horn during the Siege of Constantinople and nobody's trying to use that to prove Turkish naval inferiority.
Perhaps similar accounts of attempts to take tall ships by force in major Western harbors could provide perspective?
Aku. Soku. Zan.
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Tyler,
| Tyler Weaver wrote: | | I'd be very wary of trusting anecdotal accounts, especially those floating around the Greatest Rumor Mill in All History, without sources. Things can get elaborated real easy, especially when agendas get involved. I've also heard rumors essentially turning the above situation around. |
That's funny, because it sounds like you have an agenda, bro. 
Let me guess--you're a kenjutsu practitioner?
I ask this because it seems as if you're trying to explain away Japanese failures.
| Quote: | | Interesting. I don't suppose you could post up an account of the battle? |
I don't have access to all of the Blair & Robertson compendium, but here's a B & R excerpt from the 1580s wako raids:
Most Illustrious and Excellent Sir:
I do not know whether the letters with new information which the governor is writing today will arrive in time to go on this ship, which has been dispatched to this port of Acabite; so I wish to give your Excellency notice of what is going on. Yesterday – St. John’s Day – in the afternoon, there arrived six soldiers who had gone with Captain Juan Pablo de Carrion against the Japanese, who are settled on the river Cagayan. They say that Juan Pablo sailed with his fleet – which comprised the ship Sant Jusepe, the admiral’s galley, and five fragatas – from the port of Bigan, situated in Ylocos, about thirty-five days’ journey from Cagayan. As he sailed out, he encountered a Chinese pirate, who very soon surrendered. He put seventeen soldiers aboard of her and continued his course. While rounding Cape Borgador, near Cagayan one fair morning at dawn, they found themselves near a Japanese ship, which Juan Pablo engaged with the admiral’s galley in which he himself was. With his artillery he shot away their mainmast, and killed several men. The Japanese put out grappling-irons and poured two hundred men aboard the galley, armed with pikes and breastplates. There remained sixty arquebusiers firing at our men. Finally, the enemy conquered the galley as far as the mainmast. There our people also made a stand in their extreme necessity, and made the Japanese retreat to their ship. They dropped their grappling-irons, and set their foresail, which still remained to them. At this moment the ship Sant Jusepe grappled with them, and with the artillery and forces of the ship overcame the Japanese; the latter fought valiantly until only eighteen remained, who gave themselves up, exhausted. Some men on the galley were killed, and among them its captain, Pero Lucas, fighting valiantly as a good soldier. Then the captain, Juan Pablo, ascended the Cagayan River, and found in the opening a fort and eleven Japanese ships. He passed along the upper shore because the mouth of the river is a league in width. The ship Sant Jusepe was entering the river, and it happened by bad fortune that some of our soldiers, who were in a small fragata, called out to the captain, saying to him: “Return, return to Manila! Set the whole fleet to return, because there are a thousand Japanese on the river with a great deal of artillery, and we are few.” Whereupon Captain Luys de Callejo directed his course seaward; and although Juan Pablos fired a piece of artillery he did not and could not enter, and continued o tack back and forth. In the morning he anchored in a bay, where such a tempest overtook them that it broke three cables out of four that he had, and one used for weighing anchor. He sent these six soldiers in a small vessel to see if there was on an islet any water of which they were in great need. The men lost their way, without finding any water; and when they returned where they had left their ship they could not find it they met with some of those Indians who were in the galley with Juan Pablo, from who, it was learned that Juan Pablo had ascended the river two leagues and had fortified himself in a bay; and that with him was the galley, which had begun to leak everywhere, in the engagement with the Japanese. The Indian crew was discharged on account of not having the supplies which were lost on the galley. Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful.
The six soldiers came with this news, and on the way they met a sailor who had escaped from a Sangely ship which had sailed from here. With supplies of rice for Juan Pablo. He says that the Sangleys mutinied at midnight and killed ten soldiers who were going with it as an escort, who had no sentinel. This one escaped by swimming, with the aid of a lance that was hurled at him from the ship. Moreover, I have just detained some passengers who were going on this ship, because there are no troops on these islands, and a hundred soldiers have to go immediately as a reenforcement, although the weather is tempestuous. I expect to be one of them, if the governor will give me permission. These enemies, who have in truth remained here, are a warlike people: and if your Excellency does not provide by this ship, and reenforce us with a thousand soldiers, these islands can be of little value. May your Excellency with great prudence provide what is most necessary for his Majesty’s service, since we have no resource other than the favor your Excellency shall order to be extended to us. The governor was disposed to send assistance to the ship, which was a very important affair; but after these events he will not be able to do it, because there do not remain in this city seventy men who can bear arms. May our Lord guard the most illustrious and excellent person of your Excellency and increase your estate, as you Excellency’s servants desire. From Cabite, June 25, 1582. Most excellent and illustrious sir, your servant kisses your Excellency’s hands.
JUAN BAPTISTA ROMAN
Now, about your commentary concerning the wako...
| Quote: | | It's also worth noting that the wako, though certainly scary enough as pirates, were probably markedly inferior in tactics and equipment to actual Japanese troops. |
This is hardly a cut-and-dried issue. Spanish accounts, like the one above, observe that at least the wako who fought in the Philippines were very well equipped with both melee weapons and firearms.
| Quote: | | The same Chinese armies that had managed to clear the coast of China of wako raiders in the 1580s were cut to pieces by the Japanese again and again during the Imjin War, even when they had a large numerical advantage - I don't think a Chinese army was ever successful in taking a Japanese-held fortification that was still being defended by its garrison, even when the wajo fortress was still well under construction! |
This is likewise a complicated situation. A Japanese "superiority" was noted in fierce land battles like Pyokje in 1593, but who ultimately won the Imjin War? Correct me if I'm wrong--Hideyoshi had grand plans to conquer Ming China, and yet he never even got out of Korea (aside from Kato's expedition against the "Orangai", aka the Jurchens).
| Quote: | | Given that the Japanese were operating under "capture intact" orders, that goes a long way towards explaining the difficulty they experienced in taking Pessoa's ship - taking an aware Dutch East Indiaman-style ship from small boats is geneally a nonstarter, and it sounds as though the battle turned against the Portugese once the Japanese got serious. |
Define "getting serious".
The Japanese initially attacked with 1,200 troops, which sounds downright "serious" right off the bat.
In any case, I mentioned this incident simply to illustrate and early example of Western vs. Eastern swordsmanship.
| Quote: | | The Turkish navy, despite 50-to-1 superiority in galleys, was unable to stop several high sailing ships from getting into the Golden Horn during the Siege of Constantinople and nobody's trying to use that to prove Turkish naval inferiority. |
And yet, the Turks clearly were inferior in the naval department, until Algerian corsairs taught them the finer points of fighting at sea.
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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We also have the case of various Filipino eskrimadors (some who were native guerrillas, and some who were Filipino-Americans in the U.S. Army) who engaged katana-armed Japanese officers and bayonet-equipped troops in HTH combat during WWII. We should keep in mind that the various Filipino methods are composite systems, with elements of Spanish swordfighting present. Kalis Ilustrisimo (the style of the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo) is said to be 40% Spanish-derived. Antonio Ilustrisimo's skills with the sword are very well known, and he was one of those eskrimadors who fought against the Japanese.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Let's be fair. The average Japanese soldier of WWII was hardly a Samurai. I'm the last person to say that Western swordsmanship is inferior to that of the East or that Samurai had magical Jedi skills, having been cured of those misconceptions back in high school. And I must say that of the European rapier schools I find that of the Spanish to be particularly interesting. However, we seem to be taking these things out of their appropriate places in history. The dealings between the Portuguese and the Japanese in the seventeenth century deal with actual warriors and their fighting styles in their proper historical context. Applying the argument to twentieth century warriors and fighting styles and extending those conclusions backwards in time involves a fairly large degree of separation for accurate analysis.
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: | | Let's be fair. The average Japanese soldier of WWII was hardly a Samurai. I'm the last person to say that Western swordsmanship is inferior to that of the East or that Samurai had magical Jedi skills, having been cured of those misconceptions back in high school. And I must say that of the European rapier schools I find that of the Spanish to be particularly interesting. However, we seem to be taking these things out of their appropriate places in history. The dealings between the Portuguese and the Japanese in the seventeenth century deal with actual warriors and their fighting styles in their proper historical context. Applying the argument to twentieth century warriors and fighting styles and extending those conclusions backwards in time involves a fairly large degree of separation for accurate analysis. |
Very true, and I for one would prefer not to see an otherwise informative thread turn into a "mine is better than yours" argument.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Tyler Weaver
Location: Central New York Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We also have the case of various Filipino eskrimadors (some who were native guerrillas, and some who were Filipino-Americans in the U.S. Army) who engaged katana-armed Japanese officers and bayonet-equipped troops in HTH combat during WWII. We should keep in mind that the various Filipino methods are composite systems, with elements of Spanish swordfighting present. Kalis Ilustrisimo (the style of the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo) is said to be 40% Spanish-derived. Antonio Ilustrisimo's skills with the sword are very well known, and he was one of those eskrimadors who fought against the Japanese. |
Then by all means, bring on the accounts, although many FMA anecdotes in WWII are fairly dubious. Although, as has been mentioned above and in numerous Japanese sources, there were also plenty of bad swordsmen and bayonet-fighters in the Japanese army along with the good ones.
| Quote: | That's funny, because it sounds like you have an agenda, bro.
Let me guess--you're a kenjutsu practitioner?
I ask this because it seems as if you're trying to explain away Japanese failures. |
A small one. I think kenjutsu and other AMA arts occasionally get trashed on without comment in WMA-related discussion boards, and that too few practitioners of them (such as myself) are willing or able to stand up and be heard outside of their own communities. It's subtle, but it's a dangerous trend.
"Explaining away" Japanese failures is all well and good, as long as it's grounded in reality. I can cite numerous examples of Native Americans armed with weapons straight out of the Stone Age thrashing Europeans with the latest in technology from time to time, but in the end those defeats were due to tactical and strategic failures, not martial superiority among the war-bonnet crowd.
| Quote: | | This is hardly a cut-and-dried issue. Spanish accounts, like the one above, observe that at least the wako who fought in the Philippines were very well equipped with both melee weapons and firearms. |
True, but equipment is not the whole picture. Discipline, professionalism, doctrine, loyalty, and quality of command can make up for all but the most crushing equipment disparities. In any event, the wako did not do badly - I'm just pointing out that they were pirates with objectives centering around their profession, not professional soldiers intent on taking the Philippines for Japan and that their performance in the Philippines should not be judged in the light of conquest.
| Quote: | | This is likewise a complicated situation. A Japanese "superiority" was noted in fierce land battles like Pyokje in 1593, but who ultimately won the Imjin War? Correct me if I'm wrong--Hideyoshi had grand plans to conquer Ming China, and yet he never even got out of Korea (aside from Kato's expedition against the "Orangai", aka the Jurchens). |
The Japanese withdrew from Korea for political and strategic reasons. They were not forced out in the sense that they were driven into the sea by the Chinese. Had the Tokugawa desired to expand overseas as Hideyoshi had, they could have easily launched another expedition after the Osaka War, not bungled it (the Imjin war, especially the first invasion, was badly mismanaged from the start), and probably made a decent stab at claiming the throne of China for the Emperor had they wished to.
| Quote: | | Define "getting serious". |
Not screwing around trying to board people in the middle of the night in boats. Once they abandoned subtelty and attacked frontally, it sounds as though the Portugese were in immediate and dire trouble. Let's remember, the Portugese lost - they were fighting hand-to-hand on the decks and probably being raked with musketry from above, with no relief in sight, and their ship eventually caught fire and burned. In the context of Japanese vs. Portugese swordsmanship, more detailed descriptions of the boarding action would be needed, preferably from Japanese and European sources so a comparison could be made and heroic exaggeration on either side discounted. I'd suspect that as momentous an event as an open battle with a European vessel in Nagasaki harbor would illicit comment from Japanese chroniclers, but it's not really an easy research question.
Aku. Soku. Zan.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler wrote: | | A small one. I think kenjutsu and other AMA arts occasionally get trashed on without comment in WMA-related discussion boards, and that too few practitioners of them (such as myself) are willing or able to stand up and be heard outside of their own communities. It's subtle, but it's a dangerous trend. |
You won't find the trashing of any discipline here Tyler. This isn't the place for it, nor is it the place for a personal crusade. Just keep the discourse mature and academic folks. (so far everyone has, and thank you for that)
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Very true, and I for one would prefer not to see an otherwise informative thread turn into a "mine is better than yours" argument. |
Patrick,
As I stated on another thread, I have studied various arts--Western fencing, FMA, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu. BJJ is rooted in old-style (pre-1925) judo--the groundwork is the "ne-waza of the Kansai region", with modifications. The groundwork of early judo is one of two great modern ground wrestling traditions (the other being professional catch-as-catch-can/Lancashire wrestling), and it appears to be the more complete of the two. I have argued in favor of the obvious practicality of various Japanese arts on several websites over the years. Because of this, I fail to see how this can really be a "mine is better than yours" type of debate.
However, the historical record stands on its own, and the Japanese did not always have it their way. Effective fighting arts have come from many different parts of the world.
Respectfully,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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David,
Having studied the oriental arts myself I agree that their practicality is above dispute, at least the ones that are well grounded in reality instead of modern competition. They have their strengths and weaknesses as any system does.
| David wrote: | | Because of this, I fail to see how this can really be a "mine is better than yours" type of debate. |
Don't take my comments as being directed at you in particular. If that was the case they would begin with "David........" Pleases relate my comments to the thread in it's entirety and to all of it's participants, not to you alone. What started out as a discussion in tactics and history is degenerating into a debate on who's sources are accurate and who's aren't. Since very few historic sources are written from more than one point of view that argument is an endless circle. To be perfectly frank, I didn't see the merit of the discussion in the first place since it would undoubtedly go the way that "A vs B" discussions always do. More than anything else I separated it from the original topic in order to keep that one informative.
On the other hand everyone is more than welcome to run around in a circle for as long as they wish, as long as they keep it civil. 
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Tyler Weaver"] | Quote: |
| Quote: | | This is likewise a complicated situation. A Japanese "superiority" was noted in fierce land battles like Pyokje in 1593, but who ultimately won the Imjin War? Correct me if I'm wrong--Hideyoshi had grand plans to conquer Ming China, and yet he never even got out of Korea (aside from Kato's expedition against the "Orangai", aka the Jurchens). |
The Japanese withdrew from Korea for political and strategic reasons. They were not forced out in the sense that they were driven into the sea by the Chinese. Had the Tokugawa desired to expand overseas as Hideyoshi had, they could have easily launched another expedition after the Osaka War, not bungled it (the Imjin war, especially the first invasion, was badly mismanaged from the start), and probably made a decent stab at claiming the throne of China for the Emperor had they wished to. |
I'm sorry, but that's too hard to beleive. China had some excellent troops, and could have, if truely pushed, fielded them in extraordinary numbers. One of the ways the Chinese fended off technically superior warriors with larger numbers (not a human wave tactic now, but rather a team effort plan) was to have several men trained to function as a unit against lower numbers of Japanese. Someone else can tell more about the specifics, but the overall plan involved two men with trees, (Not poles, trees, limbs and all) backed up by a man or two with spears, a swordsman, and a archer.... (I think an archer... I may misremember.) This team would face a pair or so of samurai and defeat them through teamwork. Fend them off or pin them with the trees whilst the other fellows do them in.
As I recall, it was rather effective.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Tyler Weaver
Location: Central New York Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm sorry, but that's too hard to beleive. China had some excellent troops, and could have, if truely pushed, fielded them in extraordinary numbers. One of the ways the Chinese fended off technically superior warriors with larger numbers (not a human wave tactic now, but rather a team effort plan) was to have several men trained to function as a unit against lower numbers of Japanese. Someone else can tell more about the specifics, but the overall plan involved two men with trees, (Not poles, trees, limbs and all) backed up by a man or two with spears, a swordsman, and a archer.... (I think an archer... I may misremember.) This team would face a pair or so of samurai and defeat them through teamwork. Fend them off or pin them with the trees whilst the other fellows do them in. |
You recall that the Ming Dynasty fell to the Manchu shortly afterwards. The Japanese could have stepped in just as easily, if not moreso - the Machu were actually invited inside the Great Wall, and just overstayed their welcome.
Those very specialized tactics worked against small numbers of wako wth melee weapons in loose formation when the Chinese were able to effect a roughly 10-1 numerical advantage. They would have been not only ineffective, but highly counterproductive when fighting a regular Japanese army, and were never used during the Imjin War.
| Quote: | | You won't find the trashing of any discipline here Tyler. This isn't the place for it, nor is it the place for a personal crusade. Just keep the discourse mature and academic folks. (so far everyone has, and thank you for that) |
I was commenting on a larger state of affairs, not trashing on anything anyone here's done. I just figured it would be good to have an alternate viewpoint around here, and given the amount of opposition I've run into it seems justified.
Aku. Soku. Zan.
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: | | Let's be fair. The average Japanese soldier of WWII was hardly a Samurai. |
Actually, the Japanese military emphasized the use of hand weapons as much as possible, within the modern context. During the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese cavalry gave a good account of themselves against the cossacks in melee situations--this is significant, considering that the cossacks were considered some of the finest equestrian sabreurs of their time.
When the bayonet was adopted, native yari technique was incorporated into the drill, to produce a Japanese school of bayonet usage (jukenjutsu).
And Japanese officers in WWII were the last fighting men to wield the katana in earnest. The trained in both kenjutsu and kendo.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Patrick,
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Don't take my comments as being directed at you in particular. If that was the case they would begin with "David........" Pleases relate my comments to the thread in it's entirety and to all of it's participants, not to you alone. |
OK gotcha.
I think the sequencing between Sam Barris' post and yours made me question that issue.
Thanks for the clarification.
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Tyler,
| Tyler Weaver wrote: | | Then by all means, bring on the accounts, although many FMA anecdotes in WWII are fairly dubious. Although, as has been mentioned above and in numerous Japanese sources, there were also plenty of bad swordsmen and bayonet-fighters in the Japanese army along with the good ones. |
What do you mean by "fairly dubious"? Care to elaborate?
GM Leo Giron, while serving in the U.S. Army, used his bolo to good effect against both katanas and bayonets on numerous occasions. His experiences can be found in his book, Memories Ride the Ebb of Tide. In one instance, he killed a Japanese officer and a bayonet-armed soldier who attacked him at the same time.
As for GM Ilustrisimo, his exploits with the sword--both on and off the battlefield--are well known. GM Ilustrisimo was always ready to show his skills to anyone who doubted him. I don't recall any Japanese sword exponents ever challenging him.
| Quote: | | A small one. I think kenjutsu and other AMA arts occasionally get trashed on without comment in WMA-related discussion boards, and that too few practitioners of them (such as myself) are willing or able to stand up and be heard outside of their own communities. It's subtle, but it's a dangerous trend. |
Interesting--I'm honestly not familiar with this "dangerous trend".
If there is any major rivalry between the WMA and AMA communities, I would say that its between certain HEMA practitioners and certain FMAists, since the Philippines was one of the first places in Asia where WMA and AMA came into conflict. There is a lot of pseudo-history surrounding the Spanish-Filipino stuggle, and there has been a sort of backlash within the WMA community in an attempt to correct the situation. Unfortunately, the retorts have come as much from the heart as from the head, and thus the resulting articles have been a mixed bag, to put it mildly. I am attempting to correct that situation with my own writings.
As for other AMA systems, I cannot really say. In my own experience with online discussion boards, I will confess that JSA exponents sometimes take an arrogant stance, where they feel that their art is the only one that is a "true" sword art. Their outlook seems to manifest itself mostly against other Asian systems--Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian, etc.--though they will sometimes comment on the WMA movement too.
And we should not forget that, not too long ago, the popular conception was that the sum total of martial knowledge came from Asia. Until fairly recently, the average karate practitioner was of course unaware of things like, when Japanese karate practitioners came to the USA in the 1960s, there were also CACC/Lancashire wrestling exponents who settled in Japan, to teach their style to the local grapplers. As I constantly say--influence is a two-way street.
| Quote: | | "Explaining away" Japanese failures is all well and good, as long as it's grounded in reality. I can cite numerous examples of Native Americans armed with weapons straight out of the Stone Age thrashing Europeans with the latest in technology from time to time, but in the end those defeats were due to tactical and strategic failures, not martial superiority among the war-bonnet crowd. |
Indeed, an excellent book on that very subject is War Before Civilization--The Myth of the Peaceful Savage, by Lawarence M. Keeley. I recommend it to everyone here.
| Quote: | | True, but equipment is not the whole picture. Discipline, professionalism, doctrine, loyalty, and quality of command can make up for all but the most crushing equipment disparities. In any event, the wako did not do badly - I'm just pointing out that they were pirates with objectives centering around their profession, not professional soldiers intent on taking the Philippines for Japan and that their performance in the Philippines should not be judged in the light of conquest. |
Perhaps it should.
You seem to have a low view of pirates militarily, and yet pirates have often been very good in the bigger military picture. I already commented on how the Algerian corsairs essentially made the Ottoman Navy--not bad for mere pirates. The Uskoks of Senj were a major thorn in the side of the two great powers of the Eastern Mediterranean--the Venetians and the Ottoman Turks. The Elizabethan "Sea Dogs"--who, while "privateers" in their own country, were clearly "pirates" in Spanish eyes--pioneered a whole new type of warship (the "race-built" ship) and re-established the Portuguese method of standoff gunnery. And the wako who attacked Manilla in 1574 clearly displayed "Discipline, professionalism, doctrine, loyalty, and quality of command", as evidenced by Spanish commentary of the time.
| Quote: | | The Japanese withdrew from Korea for political and strategic reasons. They were not forced out in the sense that they were driven into the sea by the Chinese. Had the Tokugawa desired to expand overseas as Hideyoshi had, they could have easily launched another expedition after the Osaka War, not bungled it (the Imjin war, especially the first invasion, was badly mismanaged from the start), and probably made a decent stab at claiming the throne of China for the Emperor had they wished to. |
Pure conjecture on your part.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Define "getting serious". |
Not screwing around trying to board people in the middle of the night in boats. Once they abandoned subtelty and attacked frontally, it sounds as though the Portugese were in immediate and dire trouble. Let's remember, the Portugese lost - they were fighting hand-to-hand on the decks and probably being raked with musketry from above, with no relief in sight, and their ship eventually caught fire and burned. In the context of Japanese vs. Portugese swordsmanship, more detailed descriptions of the boarding action would be needed, preferably from Japanese and European sources so a comparison could be made and heroic exaggeration on either side discounted. I'd suspect that as momentous an event as an open battle with a European vessel in Nagasaki harbor would illicit comment from Japanese chroniclers, but it's not really an easy research question. |
Attacking in small boats in the night was not "screwing around". The Japanese perhaps recalled the victories of their ancestors during the Mongol Invasions. Where they certainly made a mistake, however, was by breaking silence--a sign that they totally underestimated the Portuguese.
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Tyler Weaver wrote: | | I was commenting on a larger state of affairs, not trashing on anything anyone here's done. I just figured it would be good to have an alternate viewpoint around here, and given the amount of opposition I've run into it seems justified. |
You have not run into any "opposition". You asked about Japanese vs. European engagements, and you were provided with the info relating to those engagements. Since then, you have attempted to explain away those events. If dismissing the historical record is your idea of an "alternate viewpoint", then so be it.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Tyler,
| Tyler Weaver wrote: | I think kenjutsu and other AMA arts occasionally get trashed on without comment in WMA-related discussion boards, and that too few practitioners of them (such as myself) are willing or able to stand up and be heard outside of their own communities. It's subtle, but it's a dangerous trend.
...I was commenting on a larger state of affairs, not trashing on anything anyone here's done. I just figured it would be good to have an alternate viewpoint around here, and given the amount of opposition I've run into it seems justified. |
I've pondered over your above commentary some more, and I have a question for you--what are you really trying to get across on this thread? What do you want to tell me? What do you want to tell others here? Since you've appointed yourself as the local myArmoury JSA rep, what are you trying to do? (Note: I'm not trying to sound confrontational or obnoxious, and I apologize in advance if this post sounds as such. I'm just really trying to understand where you're coming from).
Best,
David
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Tyler Weaver
Location: Central New York Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've pondered over your above commentary some more, and I have a question for you--what are you really trying to get across on this thread? What do you want to tell me? What do you want to tell others here? Since you've appointed yourself as the local myArmoury JSA rep, what are you trying to do? (Note: I'm not trying to sound confrontational or obnoxious, and I apologize in advance if this post sounds as such. I'm just really trying to understand where you're coming from). |
God, I hope I haven't just appointed myself the local myArmoury JSA rep. I'll let someone with more experience and a bigger reference library take that job.
My "goals" in this thread are fairly constrained - prove the historical effiacy of Japanese martial arts, preferably by direct contest with European ones, which are this forum's measuring stick as it were. Simple advocacy for my style. Perhaps you're reading into this too much?
| Quote: | | You have not run into any "opposition". You asked about Japanese vs. European engagements, and you were provided with the info relating to those engagements. Since then, you have attempted to explain away those events. If dismissing the historical record is your idea of an "alternate viewpoint", then so be it. |
Dismiss the historical record how? There are enough exploits of Japanese (or wako) skill-at-arms to satisfy anyone's appetite - I'm interested in discussion here. Are you?
| Quote: | | Attacking in small boats in the night was not "screwing around". The Japanese perhaps recalled the victories of their ancestors during the Mongol Invasions. Where they certainly made a mistake, however, was by breaking silence--a sign that they totally underestimated the Portuguese. |
Perhaps. The Japanese had had plenty of naval engagements since the Mongol invasion to recall. Pure conjecture on your part - I doubt that they were the first people around to have some jackass break silence and start yelling during a night assault.
| Quote: | | Pure conjecture on your part. |
Not really, given that the Ming Dynasty was descending into civil war at the time and the Japanese could certainly muster the manpower and European-style ships that could have done the job. Recall that the Manchu destroyed the Ming and claimed the Chinese throne only twenty years later.
| Quote: | | And the wako who attacked Manilla in 1574 clearly displayed "Discipline, professionalism, doctrine, loyalty, and quality of command", as evidenced by Spanish commentary of the time. |
The wako were driven out of China shortly thereafter, albeit with great expense and the necessity of mobilizing large armies using bizarre tactics. The Chinese, on the other hand, were defeated again and again by samurai during the Imjin War and only forced a Japanese withdrawal with a great deal of fortuitous assistance from impending Japanese civil war and Korean naval superiority. There seems to be a clear disparity in combat abilities, albeit perhaps only that between contemporary European pirates operating on land and European armies.
| Quote: | | Interesting--I'm honestly not familiar with this "dangerous trend". |
Ample evidence of it can be found in the thread on Ieyasu's namban-gusoku in the Historical Arms Talk forum if you think about the attitudes involved - WMA guys are as eager as anyone else to believe that their art is the ultimate one, and perhaps moreso. On the converse, lots of AMA guys are either unfamiliar with history or don't care about the issues at hand, so things slip by. It's a feeling that I get.
| Quote: | | What do you mean by "fairly dubious"? Care to elaborate? |
I heard that on another forum - personally, I wouldn't be surprised if many accounts had been elaborated over time, especially anecdotes that aren't confirmed independently. There's plenty of totally unfounded rumors running around about Ueshiba Morihei's experiences in China in the '30s, for example.
Aku. Soku. Zan.
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2005 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I was googling the original bit, and found this....
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/projects%20ir%201%20list.htm
It's a list of "A list of shipwrecks that are presumed to be Portuguese Indiamen" (Remember an indiaman is a type of ship, one made for the long reaching trade to the other side of the world.)
Nossa Senhora da Graça or Madre de Deus (1610)
Lost off the Japanese city of Nagasaki, this ship may have been found by a local carpenter in the 1980s. An astrolabe and other artifacts have been dredged from its wreck site in 1928.
I can't find much else online... Anyone have any luck?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Tyler Weaver
Location: Central New York Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can't find much else online... Anyone have any luck? |
Actually, the entry's bibliography has a very interesting article attached, with some details of the battle. We need some primary sources here.
To get back to the original subject of my inquiry, a technical comparison between kenjutsu and Portugese sword-and-target techniques...
| Quote: | | P.S. I wouldn't categorize a theoretical "katana vs. sword-and-target fight" as one of "speed, power and leverage versus reach and solid defense", since the single-handed espada certainly possess "speed" too. |
I don't have much experience with European swordsmanship besides watching a few commonly-available video clips that may or may not be representative of the style and hanging around on WMA forums, but I would like to think that my kenjutsu technique is workmanlike enough. With that said, I can say this - Japanese swords, properly used, are hellishly fast and maneuverable weapons (not to mention having loads of leverage thanks to their hilt length), and I don't see how a single-handed cutting sword alone could beat one without getting lucky. That equation changes if our Portugese swordsman has a shield to facilitate single-time counterblows, but it seems to me that the Japanese swordsman could simply close in agressively on the sword-and-target man's sword-side and cut him down then and there without letting him get his shield into play, or at least force him to maneuver his shield over to his sword-side and hang himself up, opening him up to an attack to his other side in the process.
Aku. Soku. Zan.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Weaver wrote: | | Quote: | | I can't find much else online... Anyone have any luck? |
Actually, the entry's bibliography has a very interesting article attached, with some details of the battle. We need some primary sources here.
To get back to the original subject of my inquiry, a technical comparison between kenjutsu and Portugese sword-and-target techniques...
| Quote: | | P.S. I wouldn't categorize a theoretical "katana vs. sword-and-target fight" as one of "speed, power and leverage versus reach and solid defense", since the single-handed espada certainly possess "speed" too. |
I don't have much experience with European swordsmanship besides watching a few commonly-available video clips that may or may not be representative of the style and hanging around on WMA forums, but I would like to think that my kenjutsu technique is workmanlike enough. With that said, I can say this - Japanese swords, properly used, are hellishly fast and maneuverable weapons (not to mention having loads of leverage thanks to their hilt length), and I don't see how a single-handed cutting sword alone could beat one without getting lucky. That equation changes if our Portugese swordsman has a shield to facilitate single-time counterblows, but it seems to me that the Japanese swordsman could simply close in agressively on the sword-and-target man's sword-side and cut him down then and there without letting him get his shield into play, or at least force him to maneuver his shield over to his sword-side and hang himself up, opening him up to an attack to his other side in the process. |
Remember Tyler that the shield much of the time is not used "passively". That is to say, one doesn't just simply hold it in front of one's self. Rather, it is actively moved off to close the line of attack, or better still, it is used to actually smash aside the opponent's weapon. My point is that it's not going to be easy to simply attack a swordsman's arm when he has a shield and is skilled in its use. Keep in mind too that anyone skilled with the shield will undoubtedly be aware of feints to draw his shield away and leave himself vulnerable, so that tatic will not be easy either.
And as I'm sure you've probably heard ad nauseam by now, historical European single handed swords are quite light and maneuverable themselves. I don't think that a katana could necessarily "out-finesse" one. What would be without question an advantage is that a katana employs two hands, which will allow for better control of the weapon, and perhaps in that sense it could "out-finesse" a single handed medieval sword. It would be an interesting fight, and all other factors being equal (not likely, but let's pretend for the sake of discussion), I would say that the Japanese swordsman would probably have the advantage, although the outcome would still be uncertain.
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