[Thomas Hoogendam]

I've searched the forums, and although a few hits came up, nothing that really answered my question.

The Mortuary hilt saw a lot of action from 1642-52, during the ECW. Now, logic would dictate that a Proto-Mortuary hilt would've been used before that time. But around what time? Early 17th century? Late 16th??

[William Goodwin]

Your assumptions are good Thomas. Proto-Mortuary's - very late 1500's & early 1600's. Mazansky's chapter on Mortuary's doesn't seperate the two (Proto & regular) in his typology of the (in my eye's) the glorious designs of the Mortuary.

Bill

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Thomas and Bill,
The following is my opinion, and I'm not sure I can document all of it, but here goes! Both proto-mort and mort saw service in the ECW, and while more morts have survived, there's alot of the proto-morts extant as well. I think that the hilt types were developed independently at about the same time, possibly as early as the 1630s (big guess here!), and their use contined past the 1650s (but how far? Don't know).

The name "proto-mort" was, if I remember correctly, coined by Claude Blair back in the 1980s. He called these hilts types that because he imagined them as being the predecessor of the true mort. However, remember that they were in use side by side-- I'm not sure that there's any concrete evidence that the proto-mort was first, and the mort developed from it.

What I do see in the two hilt types is an attempt to give more hand protection in as simple a way as possible. Both types give a lot of protection, both are easy to make, with the edge going to the proto-mort, as they can be cut out of one piece and hammered to shape.

One of the construction details that make me think that thses have an independent origin is the grip mount/langets on the mortuary hilt. These are certainly not necessary, yet they're found on the true mort hilt, but never on the proto-mort (well, as far as I know, anyway).

Feel free to debate here! Someone's likely to come up with a proto-mort with the mort-style grip mount!

--ElJay

[William Goodwin]

Hey Eljay!

I'm thinking that the Proto's came into play a wee bit earlier than 1630, maybe not as early as late 1500's, as I first said,but quite possibly around the turn of the century. The scalloped shell guards (which are very common on Proto-Mort's) could also have been influenced from some rapier & reitschwert hilts of the mid & late 16th c., bearing the same trait.

BTW Eljay, your latest wares that have been turning up around here have been "Brilliant".

Bill

[Thomas Hoogendam]

Eljay, I'm very glad that you posted too.

You see, the reason I asked is, I've purchased the Proto-Mortuary hilt you'll be shipping to Gus in october, and I wanted to know a bit more about it.

William, Eljay, thanks for sharing some of your knowledge on the subject to enlighten me, and Eljay, I already know I'm going to love that sword.

[E.B. Erickson]

Thomas;
Glad to hear that you're a proto-mort fan, and that you've got one of the swords that Gus and I are doing. PM me with your palm size and any other things you'd like to see in your hilt!

Bill.
Meanwhile, back at the dating discussion - if by Reitschwert you mean the German types, I think they're too early. I also think that the development of both the proto-mort and the mort needed only to look at English influences, as during the 1620s-30s there was a typical English rapier with a shell (Oakeshott's English Hilt A), a back/broadsword that usually has a shell (Oakeshott's English hilt D- the one he has sketched has two rings instead of a shell- but the shells are the norm),
and a second back/broadsword type that almost looks like a proto-mort, even to the shell in the knucklebow, but the construction is very different (the hilt we discussed making for you that you have photos of is one of these, although with an extra mortuary-like sideguard).

But besides the influence issue, there still remains the question of concrete evidence. Are there ANY extant proto-morts or morts from the 1630s or earlier? Is there any portrait from the 1630s or earlier that shows a proto-mort or mort? If not I'll stick with a point of origin for both types in the late 1630s or early 40s.

--ElJay

[William Goodwin]

Eljay,

You are correct on all points. As far as the Reitshwert, I was merely using that reference as a"possible" influence, as far as the scalloped shell aspect goes. There are a couple of pics in Oakeshott's "European Weapons & Armour....." book that do show English rapiers with a shell guard with-in the hilt design. And with the actual date thing, yes, I totally agree with you on the Proto-Mortuary's & Mortuary's being produced (with regards to concrete evidence) as showing up no earlier than 1635. But there may be, some where out there, a piece floating around in someone's private collection, that may have been made at an earlier date. But once again, just speculation on my part.

Your reference material & original pieces far out-weigh my Mortuary research material, so your judgment is better than mine in that respect. I'm still building on Mortuary data and with the continued efforts & support of people like you, I hope to,someday, compile it all into some kind of formal reference/work. Love these types od discussions, and you as well know, anything to do with the Mortuary hilt, I'm up to talk/listen about.

Cheers,

Bill

[Thomas Hoogendam]

Again, Eljay and William, you guys have been fantastic. This is really fantastic stuff. Both of you, thank you very much.

BTW, Eljay, I PM'ed you.