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Aaron Schnatterly
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 Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Goerner wrote: | One thing to note about the picture you referenced of my cut -- I don' think the ring you see in the air is water -- I believe it is actually a slice of the milk jug. I had already removed a slice or two prior to this cut, so you are seeing a cross section flipping up in the air.
That said, I couldn't agree more with your comments about what these photos reveal about the impact of a blade on a target. Bill and his lovely bride, Jeanie, took some great shots! |
I have to agree, Chris, that the pics are awesome. From what Bill said ("I have loads more photos taken, it's just that 12 midnight, I was starting to nod off a bit."), we have some more treats coming!
Looking at the pic, I see the piece of the jug you are referring to, but that's not what I was looking at. I'd noticed the ring of the jug above... here's a cutout with arrows pointing out what I was referring to...
Really awesome! 
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome pics Bill!
Heh, whoops, my form's wrong. My foot should have been on the ground in a finished lunge by that point.  Always good to see photos/vids of oneself. Shows that just because you know what's right doesn't mean you actually do it in practice. 
Aaron, I agree, that's a fantastic photo... though I thought it was cool because of what a badass Chris looks like in it. 
As for a video, I don't know anyone with a camera setup for it... but maybe I just haven't asked around enough. I will look into that.
Daniel:
| Quote: | | Bill (GR), obviously the shape of edge affects this, as a lot of later rapiers do not have a cutting edge as such, so I imagine you are concentrating on earlier flat diamond or lozenge blades. |
You're absolutely right. I focus on Italian rapier techniques of the early 17th century. The surviving manuscripts discuss cuts fairly often, at least moreso than people realize. I don't know much about 18th century rapier, though from my understanding there are no cuts, and surviving museum examples of the weapon type show that these typically had no edge. Some are essentially very long epee blades with sharp tips.
The two rapiers I was cutting with at the party were a PMC pappenheimer rapier with an ATrim blade, and an A&A Milanese (which I tend to consider a rapier that is somewhat in transition between the earlier "side sword" and the later thrust-oriented rapier). Both of these are a little short for my height, though not by a whole lot. You asked if I found if length affected the cut, and I would say not as much as balance. I have a Darkwood Armory rapier with a 42" blade that I fence with that feels fantastic on the cut. My custom A&A piece with a blade close to that size doesn't feel as natural on the cut, but feels fantastic on the thrust. Likewise I've handle a couple antiques that also exhibit a different range of feel on cutting motions.
| Quote: | | What section of the blade are you using, the last six inches of the foible ? Or more ? |
The Fabris manuscript says to use the entire debole (foible) of the sword. It's not so much a draw cut as it is a cut where there is a forward or backward movement while you are striking, so the slice comes largely from footwork. A lot of rapier practitioners, when fencing, use a pulling or pushing motion as they lay the sword against the opponent, but these cuts don't really do anything, particularly against thick clothing. There needs to be both a percussive element as well as a slice with the cut.
With many of the cuts you are doing them because you and your opponent have closed past the tip, and you need to cut or risk being hit when you break the distance. This is not an ideal situation to be in, but it certainly can happen. Another example of a cut is in Plate 8 of Capo Ferro, where your opponent thrusts low at your lead leg. You pass your leg back out of the way, and you can possibly, and probably most effectively, thrust high at their head simultaneously. However, for some reason Capo Ferro also gives the option of cutting at the incoming arm rather than thrusting at the head. This is most likely because the arm is a smaller target, and if it is your choice to attack it, a cut is probably more assured to succeed. Interestingly, when Capo Ferro talks about what the loser should have done, he only mentions cuts and not a single thrust.
(plate 8 from Capo Ferro, courtesy of ARMA's website)
| Quote: | | The Capo Ferro manual does not really delve into cuts much but it would seem a logical move given the sword-shape of earlier rapier blades and the fact that most fencers were probably still very aware of, if not specifically trained in, the older cutting sword style. |
It's funny you should say that, because even though Capo Ferro doesn't go into specifics of the cut, he shows strong evidence of a link in his style to earlier cut and thrust sword play. He mentions some of the earlier guardias such as those taught by masters like Marozzo, though he doesn't define them, and seems to assume the reader already knows. He also has the cut as a "back up" option to many of his techniques, showing he does seem to have a "soft spot" for cutting techniques. So I would entirely agree with you!
| Quote: | | (PS, can you carve BG into the fruit with a few nonchalent cuts ? That would be a show-stopper!) |
Ha! Probably not with proper form, no! Obviously there's a reason Zorro chose his name, it's a lot easier to do a "Z". 
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Helen Miller
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome set of pictures! My favorites include Grandy's melon show and the "onion ring" picture. It is indeed a milk jug. I think I recognize a sword in the 11th set of pictures (sword all the way on the left), it's gotta be Bob's OI!
Helen
-"A woman's tongue is her sword, and she does not let it rust."
Proverb
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Alright Aaron, more pics.
The first is me & my precious (A-C Mort). if you look straight up & a little to the right you can see the blue blurr of the cap from the jug. Watching Bill Grandy slowly disect the cantalope was quite treat. i have more shots of him on another roll of film not yet finished , also there should be some shots of Jason E. & war-hammer vs 2-L bottle, what a hoot that was.
Bill
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mighty mace
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Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| William Goodwin wrote: | Alright Aaron, more pics.
The first is me & my precious (A-C Mort). if you look straight up & a little to the right you can see the blue blurr of the cap from the jug. |
Yup - there it goes... straight into orbit. Nice aim. Nice piece, too...
| William Goodwin wrote: | | Watching Bill Grandy slowly disect the cantalope was quite treat. I have more shots of him on another roll of film not yet finished , also there should be some shots of Jason E. & war-hammer vs 2-L bottle, what a hoot that was. |
Can't wait to check them out. Is that the MRL Gothic or French Mace? Looks a tad different than the A&A version... just taking a guess, as I've never seen a clear picture of it. On second thought, I think there's one in Nathan's online collection... Oh, and a warhammer vs. anything would be cool to see.
How is it that you are getting these action pics so well-timed? Are you shooting in series, just that good, or culling a lot?
I know that not every camera can deal with video, but a growing number of digital cameras will do short video clips. Mine will, and I may try to see if I can grab some this weekend. My primary concern is keeping safety and order, but if things look good or I can get someone else to grab some, I'll do that. Some pics should be a given, so perhaps I'll have some to give in return for all these treats you've given us!
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I went through the Academy with a guy named Bill G. I swear he and Bill Grandy could be twin brothers!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Aaron,
I wish we did have a good digital camera, these were all shot with the wife's 35mm Minolta. With that guess I should post a pic of the the British gals again, with small swords...
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Jeanie from Newmarket & Heidi from Kidderminster
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| William Goodwin wrote: | | I wish we did have a good digital camera, these were all shot with the wife's 35mm Minolta. With that guess I should post a pic of the the British gals again, with small swords... |
Beautiful...
...and the swords aren't bad, either.
The camerawork is great. There's an art to the photograph - you folks really do a fine job. Film or digital, it really makes little difference - the outcome is what's important. Every time "Bill" and "post pics" are in the same sentence, I know we're in for a treat.
I'm still grinning at the concept of the hammer vs. bottle by the way... that's awesome. I might have to try that one day, just for kicks.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Is the mace MRL or A&A?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2005 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, it's an MRL. The gothic one. It's pretty damn nice, surprisingly. It's the technically the same one as in Nathan's collection, but mine is newer, and it seems they've taken the quality up a notch.
Yeah, Jason seemed to have a pretty good time with that warhammer!
Heh, Bill, I actually didn't realize you had any pictures of me cutting at all. Wondering if you took a picture of me doing that mortschlag on one of the last milk jugs... 
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Looks like a fun time at the two Bill's gathering ..... thanks for sharing this with us, William!
Chris
Your new hanger is wonderful ..... looks spot on to the original that inspired it !
Eljay really captures that period look in his recreations, and I bet it handles like one too !
As it is a 'half-basket' hilt, I've included it in my 'Baskethilts by E.B. Erickson' album at this link "
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=99...uid=717149
* It features the in-progress photo that you sent me, at least until you take some glamour shots that really show it off !
Congrats, again, Mac
P.S. I've got another new Eljay sword on the way, due in Friday, so expect another addition to this album soon ;-)
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Not sure if i want to see the pictures of you guys with the mace or not...............might look like that scene in 2001 A Space Odyssey when the ape picks up the bone, has a flash of inspiration and starts smashing stuff up with it !!
Thanks to Bill GR for rapier response. Very interesting stuff. Particularly on the influences of the cut and thrust schools. I couldn't agree more. A lot is said about the transition from cut and thrust to point fencing but I often wonder how clear the distinction was. Certainly the blades themselves do not bear out the idea of a clean transition, although I have seen a number of 17th century pure point oriented rapiers, there are far too many early blades still retaining a clear cutting potential. I had imagined that fencers of the period could well be versed in both styles. And I think you could well be right, that the passing references to cuts in rapier manuals may be because the author assumed knowledge of what he was talking about. So a rapier manual may not have been an A-Z of fencing but a manual on the new technique of rapier fencing assuming an underlying knowledge of the existing styles. Possibly aimed at the more advanced student ??
I noticed your front foot in the photo. Tut, tut, Bill ........... I think you may have broken Maestro Nadi's cardinal rule ' foot first........... always' !.
Unforttunately I won't be practising any of these moves for a few weeks as I managed to fracture a toe at a BBQ for fencing friends last night. Dropped a 1 litre bottle of Chianti on it while bare-foot. Clearly shows the danger of sword-related sports !
Daniel
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | | Dropped a 1 litre bottle of Chianti on it while bare-foot. Clearly shows the danger of sword-related sports ! - Daniel |
Goodness, Daniel ..... between you, & Dr. Hannibal Lecter, I'm starting to think that's one variety of wine I shall stay very clear of ;-)
Wishing you a quick heal, Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Thu 28 Jul, 2005 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | | Not sure if i want to see the pictures of you guys with the mace or not...............might look like that scene in 2001 A Space Odyssey when the ape picks up the bone, has a flash of inspiration and starts smashing stuff up with it !! |
That thought crossed my mind, too... cool, isn't it? Might have also liked to have seen another melon involved in such a tragedy... but I guess Gallagher and his Sledge-o-Matic may have covered that already.
| Daniel wrote: | | And I think you could well be right, that the passing references to cuts in rapier manuals may be because the author assumed knowledge of what he was talking about. So a rapier manual may not have been an A-Z of fencing but a manual on the new technique of rapier fencing assuming an underlying knowledge of the existing styles. Possibly aimed at the more advanced student ?? |
I think things like this may be more common than we realize. I think swordsmanship is kind of like software. Sure, the current Windows XP looks almost nothing like the original Windows, but when you keep in mind the upgrades, revisions, service packs along the way, on the higher level, they are all operating systems, and decent for their day. The transition from 98 to 2000 to XP was almost seamless for me... learn a few caveats, and I'm trucking along. Trying to break my grandmother in on XP with it so ingrained in me is, well, it isn't going to happen. A lot of what I take for granted, as automatic knowledge just isn't there. We have a tendency of looking at a lot of these old manuals like they are whole, alpha-omega works. I think you are dead on, here, Daniel - this is probably the "lite" version of the user manual. There was probably a lot of assumption of basic skills. Unfortunately, we don't have some of that knowledge, but we do have folks such as you and Bill who study enough to bring this stuff to light. I've seen tremendous progress in historical study over the past decade. I hope to see it continue in the next ones.
| Daniel wrote: | | Unforttunately I won't be practising any of these moves for a few weeks as I managed to fracture a toe at a BBQ for fencing friends last night. Dropped a 1 litre bottle of Chianti on it while bare-foot. Clearly shows the danger of sword-related sports ! |
Not good, Daniel... not good. And alcohol-related, as well... I wish you a speedy recovery! Hopefully it's one of the little piggies... buggering up the big one tends to put a little hitch in your git-along.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Nice allusion, Mac ! But don't worry. Rest assured if you ever come across the pond, I won't be sizing up your liver and soaking a pan of fava beans!
Aaron, I know, I know. Alcohol related and in a fencing environment. I think i need to consider full protective gear when handling a corkscrew let alone a sword. 'White or red ? Hold on while I just put on my mask, glove and steel toed boots' . Didn't consider that one in the recent sword-safety thread did we. School-boy error. ALWAYS make sure of a safe environment when uncorking 1 litre Chianti bottles. It's my second toe on the left foot so not a pinky.
I kind of like the 'Windows school of fencing development''', and agree with the comparison albeit a different environment. We do often miss out on the skills which were assumed, or for which we don't have the manuals, so end up with a rough patch-work idea of what a skilled fencer of the day would have had in his resume. Certainly accounts of duels passed down such as in Huttton's Sword & The Centuries seem to imply a variety of moves.
Also look at Henry Angelo's records on small-sword technique. He talks about seizures of the blade and wrestling disarmaments which would not look out of place in Vadi's Arte Gladiatoria.
Daniel
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | | It's my second toe on the left foot so not a pinky. |
That won't be so bad... the big toe and pinky toe are the primary balance ones... the others stabilize, but not as much.
"En Garde! will be back in your active vocabulary soon.
| Daniel wrote: | Certainly accounts of duels passed down such as in Huttton's Sword & The Centuries seem to imply a variety of moves.
Also look at Henry Angelo's records on small-sword technique. He talks about seizures of the blade and wrestling disarmaments which would not look out of place in Vadi's Arte Gladiatoria. |
Yes, agreed. Works such as Tobler's on German Longsword, while quite involved, still leave some gaps when put to the test - not that the work is lacking in coverage of the fechtbuch, but there were certainly a few tricks up those guys' cotte sleeves.
There are still a lot of books and references that I want to check out. Both of those are on my eventually list, which unfortunately grows faster than it shrinks. Like most topics, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Historical swordsmanship is definitely one of those topics. Expand that to the armour of the day... ugh.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed 27 Jul, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Hey guys,
I should have some more pics up tonight.(of Mr. Grandy & Jason) We had a bad storm blow through Monday eve and it drop a tree about 2 ft. from my house & 1 ft. from my Bronco II. Have been without power & phone since then. (typing this at work).
Bill
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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As promised for Aaron S. 4 more pics. 2 of Bill Grandy w/ longsword, 1 of Jason E. w/ mace and 1 Evan G. w/ war-hammer.
Bill G.
(the other one)
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Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| William Goodwin wrote: | | As promised for Aaron S. 4 more pics. 2 of Bill Grandy w/ longsword, 1 of Jason E. w/ mace and 1 Evan G. w/ war-hammer. |
LMAO!
If I didn't know this was actually historically accurate, I'd think it was a bloopers reel! That's awesome!
Mortschlag & Half-swording! That's great on it's own, but a mace and hammer? Oh, yeah! You guys definitely get 2 thumbs way up for all this action!
I definitely have to try these sometime!
Thanks, Bill & crew!
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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