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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once again Kirk, great work (hey, that ryhmes *g*).

I really like what you've done with this sword.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Fitzmartin





Joined: 07 Nov 2003

Posts: 161

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Kirk, Funny you should mention stats. I was thinking of asking you for them. Thank you very much. I like the stats on yours better. Big Grin 5 oz. and 1.5" shorter. I like it. It would be nice if there were some side views of the original so you could get some idea of the pommel thickness. That also depends, from what I am finding out, on whether the original has a solid or hollow pommel. Me personally, I would look to thinning it out. Those are some great pics you posted. The Arbedo photograghs really well close up. It definitely shows the quality of your work. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2003 6:48 am    Post subject: Moving the Grip Over The Guard         Reply with quote

Tom Carr wrote:
As far as historically correct grips, Oakeshott shows many contemporary illistrations of medieval swords gripped with the fore finger over the guard. I have found it increases my control on any single hander with a plain guard greatly. Some people have said that the Windlass Drac feels dead in the hand. I have found that when you choke up on the grip and wrap your forefinger over the guard, the darn thing comes alive. It hits where you want it to go and hits it much cleaner and harder. And the viking grip of pinkie over the pommel makes those small grips and big pommel a lot easier on the hand. Wink I still have a hard time with the viking grip. I feel like its going to go flying even though I know it wont! Just sortta gives me the willies! I used a Tinker viking that belongs to a friend and it worked well with that one. It had a smaller grip than most modern replicas and I didnt feel so self -concious useing the pinkie wrap! Cool



Hi Tom,
It is interesting that you mentioned stabilizing the sword by moving the forefinger over the guard. I agree, it makes the
sword much more manigible. I have often thought that would be especially true in getting better controle of a
wide, relatively heavy, sword that might be used for thrusting at times. This over the guard grip certainly gives more control of the tip. The problem is... there is a very good chance that you could get that forefinger cut off by your
opponents blade. Then you would have to bring your middle finger over the guard, which would get cut off... then you would have that very unstable two finger grip. The solution seems to be a ring in front of the guard to protect the finger. I believe that was the first step toward a series of hilt complications to give even better control and protection.
I put together this list of pictures to demonstrate one possible view of this evolution.

ks



 Attachment: 53.73 KB
WebComplexHiltEvol.jpg


Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities


Last edited by Kirk Lee Spencer on Fri 10 Dec, 2004 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom Carr




Location: Dallas TX
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2003 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ouch! Yes indeed! The addition of the ring guard as on the type XIX was an improvement brought about specificacly for the problem of losing your finger with the over the guard grip. I wonder how many early knights were buried with a few digits missing? Safety driven sword design advanced from there with more and more complex hilts until you reached a point that you had very complex arraingments that made it difficult if not impossible to get the forefinger over the guard. The thumb ring was the next logical step. If you have to sacrifice control for safety, then you have to find a new form of control! I personally have not tried a sword with a thumb ring. I'm thinking of adding one to my Culloden. It could use the extra control. Some cuts cause the sword to slip back in your hand and even though your first cut was perfect, you end up punting the 2 litre across the yard if you don't stop and adjust.
Thanks Kirk, for the evolution pics.
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional



Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Reading list: 18 books

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 7:19 pm    Post subject: Another Arbedo         Reply with quote

So, the Arbedo seems a popular candidate for re-work and antiquing, and here is my contribution:

As I (ab)use my Arbedo regularly, I first wanted to make certain it was, and remained solid in the hilt. I removed the leather wrap and the wooden grip, than tapped the pommel down (towards the guard) to expose the peen, which I drew out so that I could remove the pommel and guard from the blade.

After cleaning up all the components, the guard was refitted with some sheet metal shims, and the whole of it filled with JB- Weld. Once this set, the pommel too was epoxied in place with JB-Weld, and the peen reformed when it had hardened. I did re-use the wooden grip, but saturated it fully with TAP General Purpose epoxy resin and clamped it to the tang. Once everything was cured I cleaned up all the residue with sandpaper and steel wool. The wrap was done in deerskin, fitted dry then soaked in resin and applied over the wood core. To keep it in place I bound it with linen cord, the look of which I decided I liked and so kept it as part of the completed wrap.

I wanted the overall look to fit that (ab)used theme, so I somewhat indiscriminately applied salt/vinegar solution over the course of several days, cleaning it fully at several points. I finally achieved the "spotty" look I wanted and left that. The blade I intend to bring back to a decent polish, leaving whatever etching and pitting has accumulated (I treated the blade less heavily than the hilt, as it reacted MUCH faster to the solution) but haven't gotten that far yet. The scabbard was also beaten on a bit, and the fittings were easily treated once their lacquer was sanded off.

I enjoy this blade a lot, and out of the box it is a lovely melon mincer, but leaves a bit to be desired on harder targets, IMHO. The blade is so thin and lacking in spine that it is practically flat stock, which makes it marvelously flexible and also nearly pointless to sharpen (in fact, I'm told MRL will not sharpen this blade - when I got it I realized why). The tang on this piece, by the way, is wide enough but absurdly thin.

I currently also have a Drac/MRL Medieval Shortsword in the works which is disasembled. Nice blade with a good tang. In filing it down I collected over an OUNCE of shavings and that doesn't include sanding/polishing. All of the typical MRL "blade waves" are gone however, and it's shaping up to have quite an edge. I intend to re-work the pommel so the inscription is actually correct, and of course put it back together solidly. Will post on that when it's done.

-Eric



 Attachment: 123.8 KB
PostArbedo.jpg
Re-hilted Arbedo
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Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

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Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
Looks great! Having gone the faux-antique route a couple of times now, I have to know–How did you strip off the lacquer? I sand it off with good results but that's time consuming and probably not great for the mucous membranes. I found lacquer thinner and even Citrustrip to make hardly a dent in the stuff. There must be an easier way, but I haven't yet figured it out....


Sean,

On the Cross and Pommel I used a little very fine sandpaper and alot of elbow grease. On the blade I used the Citrustrip and steel wool. It was a hit and miss operation. I missed a few places, but the mustard would not etch in those places so I would put on some more Citrustrip and hit those spots hard with the steel wool.

In the end the steel wool produced a very smooth surface... I believe that is one reason the mustard produced a three-deminsional etched look, as if it were under a glass surface... obviously an optical illusion, but very interesting. The first time I did the mustard etch, the blade surface looked as if it had been etched into a pattern... much too regular... so I changed the thickness of the mustard in places, took a blow dryer to different parts to get it to etch at different rates so it would look more like aging instead of hand etching... not as a regular pattern...
It is funny how hard it is to make something look like it aged naturally. I have a few wall hangers I got for about $20 buried in the back yard. I'm sure they will look very natural.

Kirk


Hi guys,

I havn't tried this stuff on Lacquer (on purpose anyway) but I have used it on multi-layer exterior latex/rock Laughing Out Loud ? and it works pretty well. I've used the multi-strip but there are other products too. The autostrip looks especially exciting Big Grin . Hope that helps.

Good Luck,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2004 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Another Arbedo         Reply with quote

Eric Meulemans wrote:
So, the Arbedo seems a popular candidate for re-work and antiquing, and here is my contribution:

As I (ab)use my Arbedo regularly, I first wanted to make certain it was, and remained solid in the hilt. I removed the leather wrap and the wooden grip, than tapped the pommel down (towards the guard) to expose the peen, which I drew out so that I could remove the pommel and guard from the blade.

After cleaning up all the components, the guard was refitted with some sheet metal shims, and the whole of it filled with JB- Weld. Once this set, the pommel too was epoxied in place with JB-Weld, and the peen reformed when it had hardened. I did re-use the wooden grip, but saturated it fully with TAP General Purpose epoxy resin and clamped it to the tang. Once everything was cured I cleaned up all the residue with sandpaper and steel wool. The wrap was done in deerskin, fitted dry then soaked in resin and applied over the wood core. To keep it in place I bound it with linen cord, the look of which I decided I liked and so kept it as part of the completed wrap.

I wanted the overall look to fit that (ab)used theme, so I somewhat indiscriminately applied salt/vinegar solution over the course of several days, cleaning it fully at several points. I finally achieved the "spotty" look I wanted and left that. The blade I intend to bring back to a decent polish, leaving whatever etching and pitting has accumulated (I treated the blade less heavily than the hilt, as it reacted MUCH faster to the solution) but haven't gotten that far yet. The scabbard was also beaten on a bit, and the fittings were easily treated once their lacquer was sanded off.

I enjoy this blade a lot, and out of the box it is a lovely melon mincer, but leaves a bit to be desired on harder targets, IMHO. The blade is so thin and lacking in spine that it is practically flat stock, which makes it marvelously flexible and also nearly pointless to sharpen (in fact, I'm told MRL will not sharpen this blade - when I got it I realized why). The tang on this piece, by the way, is wide enough but absurdly thin.

I currently also have a Drac/MRL Medieval Shortsword in the works which is disasembled. Nice blade with a good tang. In filing it down I collected over an OUNCE of shavings and that doesn't include sanding/polishing. All of the typical MRL "blade waves" are gone however, and it's shaping up to have quite an edge. I intend to re-work the pommel so the inscription is actually correct, and of course put it back together solidly. Will post on that when it's done.

-Eric




Looks pretty cool Eric, It will be interesting to see this one in person soon.

One of these days I'll finish my MRL war sword that's been burried outside for two years :-)

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2004 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Eric...

That is one nice looking sword! I know I'm odd (like a few others here), but I really like the look of a sword with a few years (generations) on it. It looks like a sword that actually belonged to a hard working knight, not just another sword off the shelf. You have done a great job... sounds like the grip should last a few more centuries. Thanks for sharing your ideas with us!

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Patrick Fitzmartin





Joined: 07 Nov 2003

Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sat 11 Dec, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Kirk Lee Spencer, I ran into several of these at the Tex. RenFest. this year at a substantial discount. I wound up purchasing the best of the bunch that I looked at the time. I have always been attracted to this model and being able to handle and pick and choose from several was a great joy. I found the the one with the best attributes, i.e. strait hilt fittings etc. plus a bonus was the antiquing had already started. There is some rust on the hilt fittings. Still I have to say I really enjoy the way this sword responds and handles. Once I start on this one though it will be a study in a natural brown rather than black. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Jack McGregor Lynn





Joined: 12 Oct 2004

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon 13 Dec, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hear alot about people antiquing Del Tins. I was wondering what the advantages are of antiquing a Del Tin or even and MRL as compared to some of the extremely cheap decorative swords sold by dealers like BudK. I assume that you don't use the swords after you antique them. Personally, the antiquing process scares me. I fit into that group that Gus describes. People who can't afford Albions or Del Tins. My only good sword is my windlass bastard sword and I intend to keep it far away from mustard, steel wool, or any nasty chemicals. A cheap antiqued wallhanger would be a nice addition to my bedroom.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack McGregor Lynn wrote:
I hear alot about people antiquing Del Tins. I was wondering what the advantages are of antiquing a Del Tin or even and MRL as compared to some of the extremely cheap decorative swords sold by dealers like BudK. I assume that you don't use the swords after you antique them. Personally, the antiquing process scares me. I fit into that group that Gus describes. People who can't afford Albions or Del Tins. My only good sword is my windlass bastard sword and I intend to keep it far away from mustard, steel wool, or any nasty chemicals. A cheap antiqued wallhanger would be a nice addition to my bedroom.


Hi Jack...

I hear what you are saying... If you are not going to use the sword and you are going to do a severe antique job on it then a wall hanger would work as well and at a fraction of the cost. I have a frost cutlery gladius I bought for less than $20. It has been buried off and on. It's now weathering on my workbench. It certainly is looking better with age.

IMHO antiquing a sword, especially using mustard, only introduces a very shallow layer of oxidation. Several times I have not liked the results and have polished the antique surface off to bare steel. Doing this you can see how very thin the oxidation is. As a matter of fact, with mustard, I can get rid of the effect simply by applying more mustard and polishing it with steel wool. The darkened surface goes away immediately. However you must be careful to neutralize and oil it quickly before another coat begins to form. I said all that to say I do not believe that antiquing a sword quickly using the methods we describe does anything to weaken the sword in any way. Only if there was a pre existing crack that continued to oxidize would it weaken the sword. So to age an Albion or Del Tin or a very expensive custom piece would probably not reduce its durability... however, it will certainly reduce its "resellability." Happy Big Grin

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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