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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Peter Johnsson wrote: | About the future Museum Line version...
Gilding: The original has steel furniture (not bronze as Oakeshott writes) that has bevels and details fire gilded. |
Peter,
I have a question about the fittings and gilding in general. Oakeshott calls the fittings "bronze-gilt" (rather than "gilded bronze") when your pictures clearly show steel (or iron?) accented with a yellow metal. Oakeshott also refers to swords having silver-gilt hilts in his books. Obviously that wouldn't mean gold over silver fittings, since silver would be too soft to make components out of; those swords also appear silver, which would make that the top color, not gold.
Some people use the term gilding to mean applying any metal (most often gold but not always) over another. Could Oakeshott have meant that this sword's fittings had accents of bronze, applied via "gilding" techniques?
"Gilded bronze" would certainly mean gold over bronze fittings. Could "bronze-gilt" and "silver-gilt" mean putting bronze or silver over the base metal? |
This is not very clear to me. Bronze gilt does mean gold over bronze, just like silver gilt means gold over silver. Silver is not always too fragile for hilts. It depends on the sword and its use. Silver gilt can also imply gilded silvercased hilts that has steel or iron as cores.
In this case with the sword from Munich, I am not sure why he kept referring to the hilt as being bronze gilt. It could be a careless wording or it could be a misunderstanding. I do not know if Oakeshott personally saw this sword or not. He could have used second hand info or relied on old personal notes. Note: this is pure speculation.
Oakeshott is great for giving general ideas and outlining the broad picture. His books are not entirely reliable when it comes to details, though. In many cases lengths are weights incorrect. There are quite a few examples of swords in records that occur several times in different type groups.
Hope this helps.
(...and yes, the photos posted on this thread are from my meeting with this sword some years ago. I took many photos from different angles of the sword when I documented it. A few of these I have used as illustrations when this sword has been discussed. They still turn up now and then from other posters who have saved them.)
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2005 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | This is not very clear to me. Bronze gilt does mean gold over bronze, just like silver gilt means gold over silver. Silver is not always too fragile for hilts. It depends on the sword and its use. Silver gilt can also imply gilded silvercased hilts that has steel or iron as cores.
In this case with the sword from Munich, I am not sure why he kept referring to the hilt as being bronze gilt. It could be a careless wording or it could be a misunderstanding. I do not know if Oakeshott personally saw this sword or not. He could have used second hand info or relied on old personal notes. Note: this is pure speculation.
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Peter,
Thanks for the info. I think there is some confusion/uncertainty in how people use some of these gilding terms. Some people use "silver-gilt" to mean silver over another metal (as in "gilded," referring to the technique not the metal itself, with silver), not gold over silver. Others would take "silver-gilt" to mean gold over silver (silver which has been gilded), which could be aso called "gilded silver".
I think Oakeshott used the first meaning in his books. There are swords with silver-colored hilts referred to as "silver-gilt." If it were gold over silver, the plates would show a gold color, not the silver they do.
So, I guess I have two questions.  Is the base metal for the Munich sword's hilt steel or iron? Does the gilding on it look like other examples of gold application you've seen or more like bronze or something else?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 18 Jun, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kirk Lee Spencer wrote: | | [About five years ago I began a photo archive for design purposes. I did not even know about forums then... so I never thought I would need source info. I now realize how important it is and will include it if I have it. I now have about 8000 images and archeological drawings in the archive. After a year of recording source info and backtracking I have sources on about 90% of the material. |
From one photo-junky to another, let me just say this:  Wow.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 23 Jun, 2005 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | ...So, I guess I have two questions. Is the base metal for the Munich sword's hilt steel or iron? Does the gilding on it look like other examples of gold application you've seen or more like bronze or something else? |
First, it is difficult to say if the guard and pommel are steel or iron. You´d have to make an analysis of the material to tell for certain (or scrape it with a sharp point to see if it is hardened (and I don´t think they´d like that at the museum ;-). It could be both.
The gilding looks like fire gilded steel usually loks like.
In rare cases the gold was instead applied as leaf gold on a laquer ground of some sort. I´ve seen *one* sword like that: a late 15th C hunting sword with a gilded bronze pommel but a steel guard that was laquered (?)/painted (?) red and had leaf gold applied on top of this. Makes the guard get a surface like that of a gilded altar peice with the red showiung through where the gold is worn away.
The Munich sword is fire gilded though. Nice buttery gold layer on some surfaces, with clean bright iron/steel showing between. Very striking.
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David R. Glier
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| Posted: Sun 26 Jun, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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If you were to do a replica for a museum or similar collection, would you bother with fire-gilding, or use electro-plating instead?
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 28 Jun, 2005 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| David R. Glier wrote: | | If you were to do a replica for a museum or similar collection, would you bother with fire-gilding, or use electro-plating instead? |
I *am* working on a replica for a customer. (he is waiting with an almost superhuman patience...!)
We ahve gone through many aspects of the reproduction, wieghing questions of authenticity against usability.
The sword will be made without the text engraving around the pommel (but with the rope borders) and we will not make any gilding just beacuse the sword will be carried and handeled. Even if the electro giliding will stay on a good while, it will after a while wear thin. This might look a bit sad.
As the customer is aslo very interested in authenticity, we decided that as fire gilding is not an option, it is better not to choose a second best that never will look quite the part.
Questions like these will alsways have different answers depending on the demands and expectations of the maker and customer. In this case not including gilding and the text was the right way to go. The leather of the grip will be decorated like the original and the sword itself has the same physical dimensions and shape.
So, wether gilding is done or not will always depend on the interests and needs of the customer.
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Thu 07 Jul, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: 2nd Munich order ... |
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This post cost me a great deal of money. I can't wait till Christmass. Does anyone think that blueing of the pommel and guard would be appropriate or benificial? I plan to fondle the Munich a lot.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Edward Hitchens
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2nd Munich order ... |
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| Jared Smith wrote: | | This post cost me a great deal of money. I can't wait till Christmass. Does anyone think that blueing of the pommel and guard would be appropriate or benificial? I plan to fondle the Munich a lot. |
Hilt blueing on the Munich? ...Hmmm... Now that I think on that for a bit, that may look pretty nice especially with a black grip. My opinion on hilt blueing (some call it 'fire-blueing') is that it goes good only with utilitarian swords. An elaborate piece like the Munich and its original brethren would (I think) be better without it. I don't have hilt-blueing on any of my swords; I've even been told that it decreases rust buildup. However, I don't believe that hours of 'fondling' will wear out the blueing, even if it's being held with your bear hands. I hope that helps. -Ted
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Can it be the Munich sword in this engraving by Dürer from year 1513
Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom wrote: | | Can it be the Munich sword in this engraving by Dürer from year 1513 |
Yes, this is one of those famous depiction in art of this very type of sword.
The Münich sword is longer, though.
If drawn to scale in the same print, the point of the sword would reach halfway between the tip of the scabbard and the tail of the horse. The grip of the Münich sword is also a little bit longer.
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Mike Capanelli
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: munich updates |
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hi howie. any updates on the munich? any chance we'll see it in the near future? this ones high on my list.
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: munich updates |
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| Mike Capanelli wrote: | | hi howie. any updates on the munich? any chance we'll see it in the near future? this ones high on my list. |
When Peter is here in November, he will be discussing the fine points of the blade design with Steve to get the ball rolling. We'll be able to give you a better idea of when we will be going into production then...
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
Last edited by Howard Waddell on Thu 13 Oct, 2005 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Greg Griggs
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! This is the first time I've seen this thread, and I have to say that I would give my eye teeth for that sword. It has such a sleek look that it made my mouth water just looking at the drawing. The size is just about perfect for what I am looking for in a useful blade.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Griggs wrote: | | Wow! This is the first time I've seen this thread, and I have to say that I would give my eye teeth for that sword. It has such a sleek look that it made my mouth water just looking at the drawing. The size is just about perfect for what I am looking for in a useful blade. |
Greg, I'm sure you've seen Patrick's Regent... this bad boy has it beat by a bit - nearly 2 inches, if I recall... Should be a beast. 
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Griggs wrote: | | Wow! This is the first time I've seen this thread, and I have to say that I would give my eye teeth for that sword. It has such a sleek look that it made my mouth water just looking at the drawing. The size is just about perfect for what I am looking for in a useful blade. |
But it isn't scottish Greger me boyo, nor would a Hospitaller have used it. 
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Howard,
Do you all intend to build the Museum Line version (assuming there is one) concurrently or...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Greg Griggs
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick wrote: | | But it isn't scottish Greger me boyo, nor would a Hospitaller have used it. |
Correct on both points, but I can drool and dream can't I? Seems like I did see a Hospitaller drawing for future offerings as well?[/quote]
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | Howard,
Do you all intend to build the Museum Line version (assuming there is one) concurrently or... |
More likely sequentially -- work out the production bugs on the NextGen version and then roll into the Museum Line version.
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2005 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
Greg, I'm sure you've seen Patrick's Regent... this bad boy has it beat by a bit - nearly 2 inches, if I recall... Should be a beast. |
The blade itself however is only 5 mm longer than the Regent's blade according to the website specs...
Personally I'm not too happy about that. For me it would have to be real heavy to justify the otherwise unwieldy long grip.
Looks like I'll have to find another way to satisfy my extraordinary-over-the-top-long-longsword fetish.
Perhaps a slightly customised Atrim Danish Twohander will do the trick.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2005 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
Greg, I'm sure you've seen Patrick's Regent... this bad boy has it beat by a bit - nearly 2 inches, if I recall... Should be a beast. |
The blade itself however is only 5 mm longer than the Regent's blade according to the website specs...
Personally I'm not too happy about that. For me it would have to be real heavy to justify the otherwise unwieldy long grip.
Looks like I'll have to find another way to satisfy my extraordinary-over-the-top-long-longsword fetish.
Perhaps a slightly customised Atrim Danish Twohander will do the trick. |
Hey Anton!
Absolutely not saying that you should not get an Atrim, but don´t you think the maker of this sword had good reason to make it just the way it is?
If the original sword is not appealing to you, then obvoiusly you should look for something else!
Wanting a longer blade on this one is like asking for a copy of the Mona Lisa, only "better": with a broader smile and deeper decoltage....
The idea with the NG version of this sword is to make a version avaliable that is as close as the real thing as possible without having to pay for the princely and costly decorations.
There are slim longswords even longer than this one. If you really like long-blades weapons, there are plenty of other originals to look to for inspiration. Perhaps your dream sword is waiting for you hidden in some museum basement some where?
A long grip is not just to "balance" a heavy blade. There is nothing unwieldly about this sword. It is the perfect opposite of unwieldly! There are other aspects that a long grip will give a sword apart from counterbalancing a heavy blade. It changes the way nodes are placed (and interact) and have a great impact in the placing of pivot points (where the sword will want to turn in mid air as you wield it). This has dramatic effect in handling and peformance. Actually, you never know: perhaps you like this sword best exactly as it is!? Judging just from a photo or a drawing can be very misleading. I think you would be surpriced by this sword.
You might still not like it, however.
To be safe, you should go for what you already know you like, but asking a panther to be a bear is not a happy solution, I think.
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This is a standard topic