[Dan Kary]

Hi everybody,

Maybe a bit specific (and odd) here, but I am wondering if shields would be paired with the following two sorts of swords and, if they were, what kind...? Both would pertain to the 15th century (although the former would be later in that century than the latter): a grossemesser and an Italian arming sword - like the ones you'd see in the Alexandria armory (such as the famous one with the finger ring).

My guess would be a small/medium pavise with the messer and a rotella or oval shield with the Italian arming sword. Am I way off here?

Thanks!

Dan

[Sean Manning]

Except for the biggest and heaviest two-handers, swords are sidearms. They are used with any shield which a culture uses or with no shield, and the type of shield (or lack of a shield) is determined by context (ie. a traveller in the 15th century probably does not carry a heavy pavise or a jousting targe, but might carry a buckler or small target; a crossbowman probably carries no shield at all).

[Dan Kary]

Thanks Sean, I should have added this clarification: I am wondering about a martial, rather than civilian or sporting, context.

[Sean Manning]

[Dan Kary]

Thanks again Sean. Yeah the Italian round shields what sort of what I expected (I said rotella but that's probably not the right term - I think those might come later, I think in the 15th century they were more flat ovals and the lashing system was more like a heater shield...but I might be way off there).

Yeah and I guess I should have been more specific still. I'm talking about lightly armoured professional foot soldiers (men-at-arms). I know there were variations too, but I'm just trying to put together a typical image in my mind of the shield pairings for those who wielded those weapons (even as a side arm - since the primary arm might well have been something like a spear) in the timeframe indicated.

I hope that's specific enough to generate a more specific answer. I appreciate the effort in helping me!

[Ryan S.]

[Dan Kary]

Ah thanks Ryan. I don't know what I was thinking with the man-at-arms comment. Yes, typically they are what people think about as a knight but they just weren't knighted and that's certainly not who I'm talking about with lightly armoured foot soldiers (I think I had a brain cramp and was equivocating solider with man-at-arms - good point about professionals and civilians too though...my post was a mess).

Yes, your comment about pavises and messers makes sense to me because, as far as I know, they were popular in the same region/time period. Aren't pavises typically Germanic (and other Imperial areas across the alps, Bohemia, etc.) in the same way that messers are? That's my, admittedly, uniformed, impression.

I think, perhaps, the same is true of Italian type XIX swords with finger rings (like the famous Alexandria example) and round/oval shields in Italy (aren't those sorts of shields typically late medieval Italian)? But would I be right in saying that the domed, metal, versions would be a later (and also Spanish) thing? In the 15th century they would be more oval, flat, and covered in canvas (with some kind of fabric or leather edging)?

I feel like I don't know a damned thing about shields but I'm trying to dip my toe here and see where it goes.

[Sean Manning]

In English and the Romance languages, targe and target ("little targe") are probably the safest terms for medieval and renaissance gripped or strapped shields which were bigger than a buckler and did not have the classic knightly shape with a point at the bottom.

At least in England, pavise tended to be reserved for shields which were so heavy that they needed to be rested on the ground.

But in central Europe in the late 15th and early 16th century, small shields shaped like a central European pavise with a central 'trough' were popular, and some people call them all pavises. In English, they would be targes and targets, as you can see in the 1591 English translation of Giacomo di Grassi's Italian fencing manual.

I don't know of any overviews of shields in late 15th and early 16th century Italy and central Europe other than the ones in the bibliography of ageofdatini. That place and time is not one of my specialties. Good luck!

[Dan Howard]

Froissart wrote about a wounded knight being carried off the field on a targe so the term seems to have been used for the longer shields as well.

[Ryan S.]

Don´t worry about it Dan, I think a lot of people think that mercenaries should look different than armed farmers, and it is just recently that I learned that isn´t the case. The Kurfürstlch Säschsische Kriegsknechte1475 is a re-enactment group and one of their members is a bit of an expert on German parvises and has also read a lot of historical documents listing the equipment of professional units, but also farmers and citizens that were required to own arms. Pavises seem to be the only type of shield listed.

In one register that had 5,291 villagers in it, there were only ten swords, but 1,850 lange Messers. Typical is that most of the weapons were ranged weapons (firearms or crossbows). I used to think that pavises were for crossbowmen, and crossbowmen were mostly mercenaries.

[Dan Kary]

I just checked out that re-enactment group (just some of the pictures - I'll keep looking at the rest later) and yeah you're certainly right. I think that the pavises seem to be the go-to with messers as a common side arm. I assume they know what they're doing and so that might be a mystery solved. Some of those pavises are incredible. It looks like they make them themselves. They might have to - I'm not aware of anybody making pavises except Tod's Workshop but those seem to be the big ones for crossbow covers rather than the smaller ones you might use with a sword or messer (or spear). Actually, it looks like they make a lot of their own stuff for that matter and it's very nice.

Thank you so much for sharing that Ryan. I've had a nice time, and will continue to be, looking through their stuff!

[Anthony Clipsom]

Dan, you may find it helpful to use the term "hand pavise" or "small pavise" in your search. This will turn you up several manufacturers. It was also give some nice examples of real ones in art and museum collections, for you to get a feel, so to speak, of their dimensions and carrying arrangements. This type of pavise wasn't, as far as I know, common in Italy - if they wanted something of that size they would choose a rotella. So, the hand pavise and messer would be a sound combo if you were representing a German, Bohemian or other central European . A different type of arming sword or falchion with rotella would be more typically Italian.

[Dan Kary]

Thanks Anthony, I think that sounds right. I will try to narrow it down that way!

One thing I am finding is that the big pavise were pretty uniform but there is an astoundingly massive variety in the shapes of the hand/small ones. I'm now wondering if the variety was regional or, rather, if the variety existed more or less uniformly everywhere that pavises were popular (such as Germany and Bohemia - I think I have seen a lot of Flemish and Swiss ones too). There also seems to be a lot of variation in the hand setups. Some seem to be used like a buckler, while others were more rotella/heater shield like with the strap setups. The only thing that seems to be an essential property of a pavise is the channel.

Maybe somebody could clear this up for me on the Italian side: It seems that they liked their round (or oval shields) but were they all "rotella" or is rotella more specifically something domed and round (and this seems to come in later than the 15th century). It seems to me that the Italians used flat(ter) and oval shields that were very like heater shields (canvas, leather edging, etc.) in the 15th century. Maybe that's still a rotella though, because it's round(ish)?

I'm really appreciating all this help everybody!

[Anthony Clipsom]

[Dan Kary]

[Anthony Clipsom]

[Sean Manning]

I would not worry too much about terminology unless you are working with original documents since it varies from time to place. The terminology in England is very well known so you can call a shield what a person from England would have called it. It does not really matter that a Czech or a Castillian would have called it something else.

[Ryan S.]

[Dan Kary]

[Sean Manning]