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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2022 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One other thing you brought up previously in this thread that i want to circle back to, because you got me curious, is precisely when the Teutonic Order switched from doing their records in Latin to vernacular / Low German. I need to check a couple of sources.

Terminology for weapons and all kinds of military kit was very different in Latin vs. vernacular dialects.

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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep, 2022 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:

Thanks Sean, and sorry I've been absent from the forum and discussion here, I have been dealing with a few business related things that have all my attention. Looks like the terminology in question has been tracked down though. It's worth pointing out that the Teutonic Knights had convents all over Central Europe, and they imported mercenaries from pretty much the entirety of Latinized Europe, including and in particular from Austria, Moravia, and Bohemia. Several of their key mercenary commanders during the 13 Years War were from Austria, notably the highly resourceful Fritz Raweneck who perished at the Battle of Świecino. Their top mercenary captain, Bernhard von Zinnenberg / Bernard Szumborski, was from Moravia.

And they also had Crusader "guests" coming for generations from as far away as France, Burgundy, England, Castile and Aragon, Sweden, the Low Countries, Italy and so on. So they had a lot of loan words especially terms of art related to war. They did use the word 'stachel' in some surviving records, as did some towns in Franconia, Silesia, and Swabia. When I have the time, I'll post some bibliographical sources. I don't know if it's originally a low-German term or some kind of hybrid or what but it was in use since the 15th Century.


You are right about the knights being diverse. I don’t think that there is any strong evidence that Stachel originated in the south, maybe it is just a coincidence that all the sources I found were in some way related to southern Germany, Switzerland, or Austria. I just wanted to point out a pattern, that may or may not be confirmed. All, my sources were referring to later periods, as far as I can tell.

The two articles from Ekdahl cover two different periods. Although the English article cites the German one extensively, the German one is more focused on the early 15th century. Ekdahl explicitly says that steel crossbows were rare in Eastern Europe in this time period, and were only adopted later. He says the adaption started in the second half of the 15th century. I imagine, though, if the word Stachel shows up in the records, then it might mean steel prods and not a type of crossbow.

All the sources that Ekdahl quotes are in German, which dialect, I can not say. When discussing the meaning of Ruckenarmbrust, he does mention its Latin name, but argues against it being a hint to the meaning of the term. He also refers to Middle High German, which is a broad term for German in this period.
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep, 2022 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Middle High German is one of many dialects of that era, my understanding is that being basically a regional trade and administrative dialect used mostly in the Southern areas, though by the 15th Century I think Early New High German would be much more typical. There were also hundreds of local and regional vernacular dialects, some of which (as you probably know) still exist.

The Teutonic Order however were known specifically for using Low German, Plattdüütsch, aside from Latin, in their records and correspondence. Most of the towns in their region of greatest control, Prussia and (indirectly, through the Livonian Order) Livonia (like Danzig / Gdansk, Elbing, Torun, Malbork, Königsberg, Riga, Talinn, etc.), also used Low German for records and correspondence.

I don't think stachel means steel necessarily, my understanding was that the term meant 'stinger' more or less as it does today. Maybe there is a connection to stahl, maybe not. Though the Order didn't like to use steel prod crossbows in winter, they were in their inventories and they did use them. They typically used somewhat different equipment in different seasons, shod their horses differently and so on.

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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2022 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Middle High German is one of many dialects of that era, my understanding is that being basically a regional trade and administrative dialect used mostly in the Southern areas, though by the 15th Century I think Early New High German would be much more typical. There were also hundreds of local and regional vernacular dialects, some of which (as you probably know) still exist.

The Teutonic Order however were known specifically for using Low German, Plattdüütsch, aside from Latin, in their records and correspondence. Most of the towns in their region of greatest control, Prussia and (indirectly, through the Livonian Order) Livonia (like Danzig / Gdansk, Elbing, Torun, Malbork, Königsberg, Riga, Talinn, etc.), also used Low German for records and correspondence.

I don't think stachel means steel necessarily, my understanding was that the term meant 'stinger' more or less as it does today. Maybe there is a connection to stahl, maybe not. Though the Order didn't like to use steel prod crossbows in winter, they were in their inventories and they did use them. They typically used somewhat different equipment in different seasons, shod their horses differently and so on.


You are right that Middle High German is an administrative language. I assume Jean knows this, but others might not. Low German refers to German spoken in geographically low places, whereas High German is the German used for high culture contexts. The German spoken in mountain regions is upper German.

A big difference in dialect is the spelling of words. I think words like steel and stinger might have had pretty much the same meaning in the same time period, but different spellings. Sometimes the meanings of words change over time, often from general to specific. Rüstung for example originally comes from the word for tool, but now has a military context and means protective clothing. Earlier, it could also mean shield and weapons as well.

Stachel means stinger, but also refers to the needles of a cactus and the quills of a porcupine. According to Duden Stachel in Middle High German was spelled the same. Stahl was spelled Stahel. Since ch is always written as a ligature in Fraktur, it isn’t hard to imagine one mistaking Stahel for Stachel. When this mistake happened, I do not know. The source, where I read it, is only available in snippits.

In the sources Ekdahl quotes, the word steel doesn’t come up much, but in one case it is spelled stelin and the other stelen, but that is in the adjective form and not as a noun. The modern version would be stählern.

I have also found some German language sources that list Stahl or Stahle as names for a steel crossbow. They are dated, and maybe wrong. For example, uses the spelling Armrust, saying that is the correct spelling.
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2022 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I compiled a list of crossbow types that Ekdahl mentions in his German article. I may have missed something, and I left out some words that were obviously not crossbow types like war crossbow and reserve crossbow. It is all from his text and not from the footnotes or primary source material on the end. If anyone want to know more about what Ekdahl says about a certain type, just ask.

Hornbogenarmbrust also Hornarmbrust- a horn prod crossbow, as far as I can tell, this term was not used in inventories, all crossbows were assumed to be horn at this period unless otherwise stated.
Steigbügelarmbrust also Stegreifarmbrust - Stirrup crossbow, there are two terms in German that mean stirrup, so two names for stirrup crossbows.
Einfußarmbrust - one foot crossbow, when Ekdahl uses this term he is citing Harmuth, and it appears not to be used in inventories.
Knüttelarmbrust or Knottelarmbrust - unknown type of wood prod crossbow. Knottel could mean Knüppel which means a thick stick or a club. Only appears sporadically in the inventories, however, was probably used by civilians.
Stahlarmbrust - steel crossbow, This isn’t the term used in the few references that Ekdahl cites, although that would also translate to steel crossbow.
Einmannarmbrust - One man crossbow, a crossbow term used by Harmuth, meaning a crossbow that one man can use.
Ruckarmbrust- possibly back crossbow, Everyone has a different theory on what it means. Ekdahl lists at least 3 theories and suggests based on inventories that it is bigger than a stirrup crossbow.
Wipparmbrust - a crossbow used with a Wippe
Windarmbrust - a crossbow with a windlass or cranequin
Bankarmbrust - a crossbow to large to be carried and is mounted on a bench(correct term?) or cart.
gemeinen Armbrust- common crossbow, is used in Memel as a different type than "armbrust"
Hausarmbrust- large crossbow used to defend cities or castles, possibly Ruckarmbrust or Windarmbrust
Gesellearmbrust - another word for stirrup crossbow, Geselle can mean journeyman but also fellow or friend.
Schützenarmbrust - Probably a smaller or "normal-sized" crossbow that could be spanned with a goatfoot or hook. Schützen means shooter, and in this context crossbowman.
Reitarmbrust - a crossbow suitable for a mounted archer. Possibly has a ring for hanging the crossbow.
Armbrust nach alten sitten gemacht - a crossbow made in the old style. What exactly this means is not clear.
Selbstschuss- means self-shot the term could refer to a tower torsion crossbow that shot large arrows or a type of hunting crossbow also called a Legarmbrust.
Legarmbrust- a type of crossbow used for hunting predators. Only mentioned in contrast to the other type of Selbstschuss.

Ekdahl says in his article that there is a lot of room for research in the types of crossbows to try to compare the inventories with archaeological and artistic evidence. This appears not to have been done, and would be very difficult.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I checked and the Grimm Brothers do not have anything interesting under Armbrust, f.

Dr. Joseph Byrne's INTERNATIONAL BIBLIOGRAPHY OF MEDIEVAL AND EARLY MODERN WILLS AND PROBATE INVENTORIES is great if you have time for serious library research. You can find some public-domain sources on the Wayback Machine, Google Books, and museum databases these days if you know where they were published.

Edit: in an earlier thread, someone brought up this list from Troyes dated 1474 with lots of arbalests and cranequins (small windlasses). IIRC it does not transcribe a sample of the original so we can see how the medieval French vocabulary compares to the modern French.

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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep, 2022 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
I checked and the Grimm Brothers do not have anything interesting under Armbrust, f.

Dr. Joseph Byrne's INTERNATIONAL BIBLIOGRAPHY OF MEDIEVAL AND EARLY MODERN WILLS AND PROBATE INVENTORIES is great if you have time for serious library research. You can find some public-domain sources on the Wayback Machine, Google Books, and museum databases these days if you know where they were published.

Edit: in an earlier thread, someone brought up this list from Troyes dated 1474 with lots of arbalests and cranequins (small windlasses). IIRC it does not transcribe a sample of the original so we can see how the medieval French vocabulary compares to the modern French.


Thanks, I found the entry under Stahl from the Grimm Brothers helpful. It lists Stachel as an Upper German variant of Stahel. They also list a steel prod or steel crossbow as a variant meaning of Stahl. They attribute it especially to Upper German and the 16th century. In some examples they give, are lists of weapons, in which crossbows are also listed. Also, sometimes Schützenvereins have "Stahl und Armbrust" in their name, suggesting that just Armbrust meant a horn crossbow.

I also looked at the Mittlealter Lexikon, a huge encyclopedia. The section on crossbows was written by Harmuth. He divides the crossbow into the West European and Central European types, but this only happened after the steel prod began to be adopted. Additionally, he gives 4 weight classes: The largest is the Rüstung or Wallarmbrust with 6kg, the halbe Rüstung with 3 kg and the Viertalrüstung or Schnepper with 1kg. The Kleinschnepper would be the Balestrino, which he describes as medieval. I will compare this with other sources, mostly Holger Richter, who I believe represents the more current scholarship. This system appears to be adopted after the time covered by Ekdahl.

My current guess is that the one foot two feet system was replaced by the classification of stirrup crossbows, back crossbows with the addition of larger crossbows with other spanning methods. That was then followed by the Rüstung with the ganze, halb, and viertel system. This coincided with other trends, such as the introduction of steel bows and the shift towards firearms.

Does anyone know of a similar system in another language?

Richter cites Weigels Ständebuch from 1698 to contradict Harmuth. A ganze is about 3-5 kg, an halbe about 2 kg. They also used their own bolts. The need for bolts to be the right weight and length for a crossbow, means that there was a strong motivation for some degree of standardization.
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Ryan S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2022 10:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more about Crossbow Typology:

In his book about horn crossbows, Holger Richter doesn’t use a typology, except to refer to regional differences and the Rüstung type. However, he often refers to "crossbows of this type" and compares examples in museums with artwork in order to date them. Most of his examples fall into the central European category, but he does talk about Scandinavian crossbows and the Hungarian type. There also appears to be a problem with determining the cut-off point between hand crossbows and rampant cross bows, similar to other weapon types that are classified with size.

Richter believes the Wippe mentioned by the Order was not the small handheld device, but rather a Spannbock. To use a Spannbock, a crossbow needed a stirrup. In fact, it seems most crossbows had stirrups, so that one must ask how it became the name of a type? Some old books, refer to hook crossbows. Köhler believed that Ruck comes from the French Croc, which means hook. The term Wipparmbrust, comes from Bernhard Rathgen, who used it for Ruckarmbrust, because he thought they were used with a goat foot type Wippe.

Richter also has records from crossbow makers that show that crossbows built especially for target shooting existed in the late 1400s if not earlier.

A big deal is made about the English longbowmen practising, however, it seems that a lot of towns did the same. In England, it was possibly larger numbers, because it involved the Yeomen, whereas in Germany, it involved the burghers. However, the shooting contests on holidays became so important that the Schützengesellschaften kept shooting with crossbows after the fighting had been taking over by mercenaries with pikes or guns.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2022 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm actually writing a book that includes this information.

For the meantime -
https://martcult.hypotheses.org/date/2021/10

And here are a few

https://scciowa.academia.edu/RandallMoffett

So most towns of any size, have arsenals and crossbows of various types a d sizes.

As well most communities in England were required to pay to have common soldiers equipped to a certain minimum standard. If they were crossbowmen, it might include a crossbow.

Best,

RPM
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2022 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andreas Bichler just released a very interesting new video, test shooting one of his crossbows against mail and textile armor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvMm4jM49ig

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