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Dan Kary





Joined: 12 Dec 2017

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Oct, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: 900 year old crusader sword found         Reply with quote

In case you missed it...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58963025

It will be interesting to see it once it is cleaned off!
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Neil Melville




Location: Scotland
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If there is anything left after the incrustation has been removed! It should be X-rayed first to to ascertain what might have survived of the basic iron fabric.
Neil

N Melville
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2021 2:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

since no kind of tests have been done on the sword, why are they saying it is 900 years old?
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2021 3:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
since no kind of tests have been done on the sword, why are they saying it is 900 years old?


Guesswork, essentially.

There's a bit more in the link I posted earlier in the other thread

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/diver-finds-crusader-sword-off-israels-coast-180978884/

Anthony Clipsom
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2021 3:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of our members, Sa'ar Nudel, is mentioned in that Smithsonian article. How cool! He was less willing to say much about a sword so heavily encrusted (which is sensible) than some of the other folks they cited. While the headline doesn't reflect this, another authority mentioned in the article noted that some Ayyubid and Mamluk swords of the time were also straight-bladed, so this could be one of those, too.
Happy

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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Sat 23 Oct, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad! This is my full quote to the reporter:
" Unfortunately there is not much to say... I could if I had more info, aside what was already published. No exact size and the crust makes it impossible to have morphology & chronology classification. Also the finding site is obscured, for good reason."

From past experience, sometimes it is best to leave such finds in their incrustation, as inside there may be only rust crumbles. The IAA should send it to X-ray photography, and even to MRI scan, before any attempt to open the crust.


Dr. Rafi Lewis is a friend and colleague, a pioneer (at least over here) in the relatively new subject of open grounds analysis and specifically of battlefield archaeology. Currently the excavator at the Horn of Hattin site, offering some new insights about the famous battle.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2021 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Thanks Chad! This is my full quote to the reporter:
" Unfortunately there is not much to say... I could if I had more info, aside what was already published. No exact size and the crust makes it impossible to have morphology & chronology classification. Also the finding site is obscured, for good reason."

From past experience, sometimes it is best to leave such finds in their incrustation, as inside there may be only rust crumbles. The IAA should send it to X-ray photography, and even to MRI scan, before any attempt to open the crust.


Dr. Rafi Lewis is a friend and colleague, a pioneer (at least over here) in the relatively new subject of open grounds analysis and specifically of battlefield archaeology. Currently the excavator at the Horn of Hattin site, offering some new insights about the famous battle.


X rays and using MRI scans seems to be prudent before even trying to remove the incrustations and it might show something clearly enough to at least rule out certain possibilities ?

Is there a very gentle chemical way to remove the incrustations that wouldn't affect what is underneath the incrustation like steel/iron if the scans do show that there is something left of the metal that isn't rust dust ?

If the interior of the incrustation shows that whatever metal is underneath is so far gone as to be impossible to free from the incrustations without it falling completely apart would there be a way to inject some sort of polymer/epoxy through the incrustation so make whatever rust is left to keep together or it's shape ? And after this dissolve the encrustation to reveal the now solidified mass of rust/epoxy ?

Alternatively an idea might be like with Pompey using the encrustations themselves as a form of mould by dissolving what is inside the incrustations and them filling it with some epoxy ? Now this would be very destructive of the original artifact and not be an acceptable option, but it might preserve the shape of the object enough to still learn something from it !?

On the other hand if the X rays and/or the MRI can be of sufficient high resolution quality one could still learn a lot about the original sword while leaving the whole thing intact, and this being the better minimal harm done to the object to preserve it ?

I obviously don't know the technical aspects if any of what I suggest is even possible or a good idea: I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.

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Randall Levine




Location: Washington DC
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How likely is it that anything is left underneath the casing of barnacles? It has the rough outline of a sword, but couldn’t it just as easily be some other pieces of metal joined in a cross. Why not just a discarded piece of rebar?
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Gregg Sobocinski




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Oct, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

THANK you, Anthony, for posting the Smithsonian article with Sa’ar’s more extensive quotes included in it. Like Roger, I was highly critical about assumptions, both declared and assumed, in other articles about this find. “Crusader’s sword”, “perfectly preserved”, and “very heavy” are comments that bothered me. I do look forward to seeing how it turns-out after conservation.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2021 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I’m skeptical on multiple levels. Willing to be proved wrong though.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll be thrilled if it's genuine, by there are so many red flags that I highly doubt it.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, these are good solid questions. My advise was to perform first X-ray photos of various focal length, and MRI scan. AFAIK there is no gentle way to remove the incrustation as it composed of several minerals, but I'm less familiar today with advanced methods. There IS substance inside, if it is live metal or just rust powder but still the cavity is full, the cutting operation is too rough to create a precise mold.
To all skeptical people: I have no reason to question originality, it is not the first sword found underwater here.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
I’m skeptical on multiple levels. Willing to be proved wrong though.


Same

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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2021 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Jean, these are good solid questions. My advise was to perform first X-ray photos of various focal length, and MRI scan. AFAIK there is no gentle way to remove the incrustation as it composed of several minerals, but I'm less familiar today with advanced methods. There IS substance inside, if it is live metal or just rust powder but still the cavity is full, the cutting operation is too rough to create a precise mold.
To all skeptical people: I have no reason to question originality, it is not the first sword found underwater here.


Certainly not skeptical of you, just of the rather precise claim as to the type of sword and date.

Shape looks a bit odd too though that is probably down to the encrustations.

It's interesting how wide the press coverage was for this find, I think 20 different people sent me links to it.

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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Dec, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shape IS odd thanks to camera & angle maneuvers, and the length reported is, well, questionable (exaggerated). There are no arms & armor specialists within the IAA, I cannot understand why they refuse to get help from outside.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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