Recenly someone in the Youtube comments wrote that the Zweihänder or Montante was mostly used by bodyguards to defend and protect their client.
Also he said that the Zweihänder being used on the battlefield to slash pikes aside is nothing but a myth....

I have never heard of the theorie of them being used by bodyguards before, and it deosnt seem very likely to me, as this type of sword is quite a bulky objekt and it would be quite hard to go through a door with it, which of course is not desirable because you either had to stay outside while the person you are protecting goes into the house alone, or the person you are protecting isnt allowed to go into any building....

Thats the first disadvantage...the second disadvantage is the following: If you and the person you are protecting walk through a crowd or a street with a lot of people and suddenly someone attacks your client, you wont be able to swing your sword at the attacker, unless you accept everybody within 2,5 meters being cut because your sword is so damn big....

So I think that this weapon was much better suited for battlefield use, in particularly to fight several lightly armoured opponents at once and to cut or at least slash aside spears and pikes.
This theorie is very widespread, even amongst a lot of well known experts of the topic, so I think it at least cannot be totally wrong...

Also the Zweihänder was used by Landsknechts, which litually means "The Countries Servants"....so they must have been hired by the King himself, because they are serving the country...not a single lord or a rich person.
That also supports the battlefield theorie....

But I am no expert and this is just what I personally consider to be most likely.

What do you think?

I do not disagree with your comments as a whole concerning this subject matter. But you have to be careful on putting modern context on self defense in the sense that our ancestors were as concerned as we are concerning innocent bystanders

Most people before the modern area would accept more readily that innocent bystanders may be hurt in such a situation but the primary goal would have been to defend their charge and if some innocents were killed in the process though regrettable was acceptable

I think the bodyguard comment is more because those swords are so impressive that an attacker would think twice about robbing some nobleman when he's surrounded by 4-8 big guys with huge swords.

I think that there is an analogy to halberds and partisans which were more town guard / processional / ceremonial weapons rather than batlefield weapons. Especially when considering flamberge and other more decorative types of Zweihänder. So I think it's more about intimidating people than about practical self-defence.

But, to say that ALL Zweihänder were ceremonial and/or simply used for intimidation rather than actual battlefield weapons is simplifying the matter.

Maybe it also depends on the period and Zweihänder were mostly battlefield weapons in the 15th-16th C but became more ceremonial in the 17th?

If you wanted to hold a narrow street, gate, bridge etc......

Just watch this https://youtu.be/O-CKv7tjxOg

I bet he couldn't do it for long, but for a couple minutes nobody is getting close

Tod

The montante treatises have specific 'rules' (techniques) designed for defending one person, along with techniques for clearing streets or similar. Even in warfare, one of the main roles of 'short' weapons (halberds, two handed swords, etc) seems to have been defending standards, which is pretty much the same idea - these are weapons with which a few people can control a space against a much larger number of opponents for a short time.

Markus, have you read Neil Melville's book The Two Handed Sword? This has a chapter on combat use of two handed swords. Perhaps the most unusual use is for boarding actions on ships.

Anthony, thank you for the boost! May I add that my book discusses the origin and development of the 2-handed sword, but also national and regional styles, how it was used in battle (this is where Markus's idea of the bodyguard comes in - it was used by the guards of senior officers on the field, not by city street bodyguards), use in tournaments and duelling, and its final use as symbol of status - on parades and ceremonial. All you need to know (almost).
The book is not expensive, available from Amazon etc where it has very good reviews - look them up!
Neil

I have both a blunt and a sharp reproduction, and I truly can't imagine that blade getting lodged in a person.

Also the large swords are Renaissance era weapons, and armor was on the wane because of the prevalence of fire arms. Full plate and a two handed sword was a sporting combination, but the treatises for its use are, for the most part, after the time period of full armor.

I think of it as a SWAT team or armored car guardsman type of a weapon. It will allow one person to hold a sizable area against multiple opponents. It was used to protect an individual civilian, and in the military was used to protect the standard bearer.

In both military and civilian use it's discribed as a one against many, when you can't retreat, type of a weapon.

I assume the guards thing comes from Giacomo di Grassi's comments about the two handed sword in 1570, but overstated somewhat:

Quote:

The two hand Sword, as it is used now a days being four handfuls in the handle, or more, having also the great cross, was found out, to the end it should be handled one to one at an equal match, as other weapons, of which I have entreated. But because one may with it (as a galleon among many galleys) resist many Swords, or other weapons: Therefore in the wars, it is used to be place near unto the Ensign or Ancient, for the defense thereof, because, being of itself able to contend with many, it may the better safeguard the same. And it is accustomed to be carried in the City, as well by night as by day, when it so chances that a few are constrained to withstand a great many.

It was a weapon used on the battlefield (though somewhat less often by di grassi's time, along with halberds and everything else that wasn't a pike or a musket). It would be stationed near the ensigns to guard them similar to how halberds often were, there are mentions of it still being carried by landsknecht sergeants in the late 16th century instead of the halberd, it could be used in looser skirmishes, during the pursuit of broken enemies, and probably various other situations.

The idea that the two handed sword was specifically meant to attack pike formations though is highly doubtful. We start to get quite a few military treatises from this period who talk a lot about pike squares, their strengths and weaknesses and ways to attack them, however it seems that none of them ever even suggest that trying to hack your way through with two-handed swordsmen might be a good idea.