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Dear Tyler,

You might try having the belt encircle the scabbard underneath the leather cover, entering and emerging at the slit. This may require not tightening the stitching until after threading the belt through. It may also mean, depending on how you arrange things, that there will have to be a wide spot and slit on the belt to allow it to thread through itself where it crosses over, although I think you ought to be able to set the system up in a way that doesn't need this to happen.

Best,

Mark Millman
Tyler C. wrote:
I did a quick mock up today with a scrap piece of leather...

That's exactly the kind of experiments that I have been doing. Great work, keep it up, and keep posting. Love your work and insights.
Looking good Tyler! I tried a similar thing a few years ago with a sword and scabbard circa 1000 AD, though I used a slider. It's nice to see that your photos seem to match with what I noticed too: the scabbard tends to try to 'roll' or move more just passing through the slider, and it seems to stress the belt more too.

I like your mock-up quite a bit; I really think that any sliderless options will likely need risers, or some sort of integration through the back as well to take a bit of that stress off the leather in the front. Your photos show some very obvious, classic stretching and rolling, which we do not see in scabbard fragments with slider impressions. This aligns well with what was discussed above, which strongly implies one of two things:

1. Sliders may have indeed persisted longer than some of us assumed. This could also take the form of risers under the leather or wooden knobs to help brace the belt.

2. If sliders were not used, then there might need to be some changes made to the setups. That longevity test would be a good idea, to see how long the scabbard suspension will last. Additional materials like a linen underwrap that could also be slit to help reenforce the slit would be something worth looking at, and is seen relatively commonly in the literature of finds.

The above conclusions are pretty obvious, but we have now moved from personal anecdotes or speculation to the realm of digestable and testable results. I currently do not have much time to experiment, but I wonder how a linen layer might hold up, and then how a linen and leather layer (with either one on top) holds up. I may try a sort of mock up of them if I can carve out some time. Some of the early 11th century images (I'm thinking those from France and Spain, mostly) show no suspension, or show a belt going in one end and coming out the other. This could absolutely be a slider, but I will note that the gap in the belt is much wider than is attested by ANY finds, and is wider than the images we know to be showing sliders. Could passing a belt under 1-2" of the scabbard cover be helping to compensate for no slide? That might also allow for a scabbard to be worn with the suspension worn against the body (if there is a slider present), presenting a 'suspensionless' image to the world. Maciej Kopciuch of Art of Swordmaking did for a sword inspired by Richard the Lionheart's sword on his seal. I would like to see a wider 'tunnel' with either a riser on the top, multiple layers in the scabbard wrap or both. If you can try this, let me know. Otherwise, I'll see if I can mock something up. This could be what we're seeing with the loose belt in the first image in the first post of this thread: the belty might be passing through the back or on the edge and across the whole body of the scabbard, with the wider belt and longer 'tunnel' maybe removing the need for (or complementing) a slide?

Mark Millman could be correct with a belt wrap under the scabbard too, as the scabbard cover would likely help to compress the belt and keep it from moving. Especially given some of the fabric exteriors mentioned by Geibig, a leather belt over a leather scabbard cover covered with fabric could (possibly) look like an weird integrated suspension due to impressions.

Alternatively, if you again go back to the first post, William's scabbard could consist of two non-integrated loops around the scabbard exterior, possibly held with risers, possibly not, but importantly, the two loops could be linked together, much like the Z suspension seen in the Sancho scabbard. It could use a cut X rather than a cut Z, and would do the same thing as far as keeping the loops linked and helping to distribute load and stress and keep the loops from sliding too far out of position as they stretch over time.

Lastly, LOVE your sword choice. My first sword was an Albion Gaddhjalt, and I ended up shortening the blade a little bit and am going to rehilt it in iron with a hollow pommel and Johnsson geometry, and this thread will directly inform my scabbard making, just like you. You have impeccable taste.
Who doesn't like further ambiguity? Possible suspension at the throat of scabbards, mid 11th century. Scabbard decoration also present.

Source: 1028-1072 St Sever Beatus (Apocalypse), BNF Ms lat 8878, a copy of Apocalypse Commentaries by St. Beatus of Liébana.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52505441p?fbclid=IwAR2JZPuXm3_8IhU5r5rB_SpAkuaOqfeY5yMOdgsWQLMAqBlQWMYAeYDOqqw


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Thank you all for the kind comments and suggestions and I apologize for my hiatus. I have been hoping to get some other tests done to share but the weeks have flown by without a chance to complete anything. In the meantime I have done some more searching through manuscripts, and my new books has arrived. Unfortunately the section covering 11th century material is very brief. Just not a lot to go off there as we are well aware. It does give some examples of scabbards with sliders from the period, but also mentions that they become rare in the 11th century. Still great information on the finds that we do have, and the rest of book is excellent. Still digesting it, and will be referencing it for years to come.

In my searching I came across a few more miniatures that I had overlooked or missed in previous searches which I think are worth adding to the discussion. The first one is from the The Tiberius Psalter folio 10v (see below) from the mid to late 11th c. Something that struck me about this is the similarity between this and some of the scabbards of the Bayeux. If you look at scabbards 1, 2, and 5 from my post on March 17th you can see a similar square feature on the front of the scabbard in line with the belt and centered. There also appears to be a buckle at each end of short straps like scabbards 1 & 2. This one looks like the belt may be wrapped or tied around the scabbard. Perhaps a wrap like this was commonly done for transportation and it could be what we are seeing in the Bayeux Tapestry too. It reminds me of the spiral wrapped belt that we see in later periods with integrated belts.

Another interesting one also from the 11th c., that I came across is from the Ripoll Bible, Folio 6v (Spain). This one appears to depict a slider in use without the distributor and second lower strap. Very interesting! It also shows a resemblance to the light colored bands at the top of the scabbards that we see in the Bayeux tapestry (again see scabbards 1, 2, 5, and maybe 4). This image makes me think of something similar to a sword frog that the scabbard is slid into. Notice also that there are two strap from either side that enter the slide but only one is aligned. Perhaps the other does a wrap around the back and reappears but it is the wrong way around give an angle to the sword as it hags. Perhaps just a product of the depiction or carrying two swords. It is odd that it is on the right side of his body...

Still searching for more. I'm convinced that there are more scraps of evidence out there that can be pieced together.

I promise I will have something more to show soon, and I will try out some of the other ideas suggested. Still trying to get my hands on some good linen to give it a shot in combination with the leather.

I also wanted to remind anyone reading who hasn't jumped in yet to please feel free to introduce related tangents to this discussion or show your own work or thoughts on this subject. Please don't be concerned about disagreeing with the ideas proposed so far or derailing the conversation. Any additions to this search are welcomed.


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Ripoll Bible, Folio 6v - 11th c.
Scandinavian Sources anyone?
I would really love to see some Scandinavian sources. I've got nothing at all from Scandinavia. Anyone know of any imagery or finds?
Now this is a discussion. I have nothing intelligent to add, just appreciating the community of enthusiasts and researchers at myArmoury. This is why I signed up for an account here.
Alright! I've seen the Tiberius Psalter many times before, and didn't really think that the depictions showed much that wasn't already discussed, but I had never seen or heard of the Ripoll Bible! Look at that beauty! Do you know when in the 11th century it is attributed?

I recently followed a person on Facebook (I know, I know) who I asked to source images of 11th and 12th century braes, because I was having difficulty finding some. They returned with a ~30 image album from across the 11th and 12th centuries, and other started posting sculptural 3D images in the comments with loads of information and detail. That one album completely changed how I see men's undergarments for the centuries in question. I'll ask for a search for possible slider suspensions in the 11th and 12th centuries, and we'll see what turns up.

One thing to note is that slider or not, we DO seem to see a mix of angled and vertical suspensions for the 11th century. Slider-based suspensions can be shifted to function either angled or vertically, depending on how the scabbard is angled against the body, and don't need a secondary distributor strap. Obviously, vigorous leaping or running can make it shift. Wrapped belt would most likely be pre-set to one or the other, with the angle being wearer's preference.

I would be very curious to know what the composition of some of the fantastically preserved scabbard remains on swords show; i.e. wood then fabric then leather near the top of the scabbard. Find reports and drawings often indicate that textiles were included in the coverings, and I wonder if the relative lack of stretch in a fabric under layer would help the leather to deform less.
I have also looked at the Tiberius Psalter before, but I must have been focusing on the images where the scabbards/swords are worn and glossed over this one with the sword on the ground. I think I'm also looking at some of these images with new eyes the more I learn form this period. The Ripoll Bible is dated to the late 11th. Great image isn't it!

Yes please do ask your FB connection for any sources. It would be great to get some from a few other continental & Scandinavian sources if possible. This is exciting!

Which fantastically preserved scabbards are you referring to Kia? I also wish I had more information on the layers of covering. I have been working under the assumption that for the 11th century the wood core is directly covered by leather. This assumption mostly comes from a lack of evidence for textile beneath the leather in the 11th century and a small amount of evidence for direct leather wrap. Here are some examples of evidence for direct leather wrap:

1. Slider impressions in leather remains from the 11th century appear to show crisp edges indicative of direct contact. Attached are a few images of the Gloucester scabbard from the late 10th. This is the best picture example that I have but it appears that others from the 11th are similar in this regard. This is not solid evidence however because the slider could also be glued after the textile wrap, or the wrap could have been cut in places to glue the slider directly to the wood core.

2. Some scabbards from the 11th have preserved fragments of wood still stuck to the inside of the leather cover.

3. The Monk of Saint Gall also describes Charlemagne's sword as being "surround first with a sheath, then with a covering of leather, and lastly with a linen wrap hardened with shining wax". I know this is the wrong time period, but it is another example.

That being said, there are a few late 9th century examples from the Isle of Man with a wrap of textile beneath the leather, but nothing I know of from the 11th, and I believe later period examples show leather or skin directly over wood. It appears that the textile warp under leather disappeared at some point between the 9th and the 12th.


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I think I have stared at the Gloucester scabbard pictures longer than anyone. I have a hope that there is more that can be gleaned from the leather remains than just basic geometric information. I wonder if processes such as reflectance transformation imaging or other chemicals analysis could be used to tell us more like the location of straps, presence of dye or paint, impressions from textile or other binding on the inside or outside etc. There is a research paper here I'm sure.

For the Gloucester scabbard there appears to be a more that can be learned even from just the simple picture I have.

The most significate bit of evidence is there appears to be the impression of a horizontal riser just below the slide. There are two parallel lines that can be seen. One of these is in line with the bottom of the slider, and the other is about 5-10mm below that. These lines are darker than the surrounding leather which is consistent with other similar features on historical leather. I tried to trace these out to highlight them (see figure 1 below). Refer back to the full res image in my previous post to see what I am referring to. Also, at the edge there is wear that is consistent with a raised section (the wear extends along the outside corners of the riser, see image 2 below) and on the opposite side there is another patch of excessive wear right over these lines which again is indicative of a riser in this spot.

There also appears to be a pattern to the wear on the edges (see image 3 below). I wonder if this is associated with strap locations, or perhaps it was between straps so the area was exposed to abrasion.

This one is very faint, but it looks like there could be a V-shaped depression radiating out from the slider hole (image 4). Perhaps this corresponds to a channel cut in the core for the slider.

Refer back to the original image to have a look at each of these and let me know what you think. I know that it is risky to base a theory off a fairly poor image like this. For all I know the wear on the edges could be modern from mishandling or something else, and the lighting could be playing tricks with me, but there definitely seems to be more here. The riser below the slider seems quite apparent now that I have spotted it. What I would give for some reflectance transformation images of 10th c. scabbard leathers. Perhaps they could tell the whole story...


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Hi Tyler,

Some of what you see I think is legitimate, and some may be artifacts of decay, find conditions and stabilization, if it was done, and some of it might be post-find deterioration. Have you scoured the photos of the inside for the same marks? I'll look as well, if I have time.
The Monk of St. Gaul sounds like he is describing the cerecloth used to wrap precious goods for transport. I think I have seen a reference to transporting new embroidery win a canvas or cerecloth (waxcloth) wrap.

Whether to put linen or canvas between the leather and the beechwood is one thing, but there is also the question of lining. From the site reports I have seen, scabbards often had a fur or cloth lining in the early middle ages, but not in the late middle ages and 16th century.

Edit: Esther Cameron, "Sheaths and Scabbards," in AY 17.16 p. 3367 "Two scabbard leathers of late 11th- and early 12th-century date are known from Waterford (Hurley et al. 1997, figs.18:13.3 and 6) of which one, with linear decoration on the front in raised relief, is a type that occurs in Viking Dublin. The other, which is complete, has a straight mouth and is decorated with ring-and-dot stamps and tooled lines. A third example from late 13th- or early 14th-century Manchester (Walker in prep.) also has a straight mouth and two longitudinal panels, defined on the front by three raised lines, filled with hatching."

That is Hurley, M., Scully, O., and McCutcheon, S.W.J. (1997) Late Viking Age and Medieval Waterford (Waterford)
Found some things.

-I've also included the reverse of the York leather fragment. After some review, I DO think that it looks as though there is an impression of some sort of flat, thin and narrow riser just below the lower portion of the bridge. I have included the relevant sections from the excavation summary as well.

-A few photos show swords from around 1000 AD from the Baltics (?) and one from Iceland, which show mineralized impressions or iron salt preserved fabrics wrapped around the wood of the scabbard. Not super relevant, but still useful.

My 'organization' system is pretty bad, and I have other images of preserved scabbards, but they're generally not as detailed, and trend towards the end of the period of interest here. I'll keep looking when I can and add more.


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Drat--I think this is from the Codex Aureus (?), but this is one of the cloth belt system that is dated to right around 1030-1050 AD.

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Another cloth belt image, also from 1030-1050, Codex Aureus Epternacensis, folio 19 verso.

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Little bit more to add to muddle the mix, so to speak...

Two images from a recent historical iconographic compendium of 12th century flags. The first image is from 1130-1140. Not in out time period, but not wildly outside of it. I'm not proposing that it is pertinent to 11th century suspension. Rather, I post it because of the ambiguity of the sword on the far left--both in terms of typology (is the hilt broken? Is it deliberately harking back to older sword hilts?) and in terms of suspension. It looks like a slider-less wrap with a leather belt. I don't know the image context, so I can't say if it's supposed to look 'old' or not.

Second image is also not in out period of interest, and is also not to be used as insight into 11th century suspensions. I'm sharing it because it also seems to show a slide-less wrap as the sword suspension. It's interesting to see this represented (or possibly represented, if it is in fact only part of the suspension system, and some things aren't shown or are un-seeable) sporadically but continuously in an era that many would argue was integrated belts or nothing.

Neither example above is the norm for their century, and likely wouldn't be for the 11th, either, but that style does appear to persist for a while. Note that the belt closure styles are identical with other images showing integrated belts, and that in one image, the wielder has no armor and is carrying a bow, possibly indicating 'lower' status, while the other image shows a man-at-arms in full kit. Based on these two images--which are not a statistically significant number--class doesn't seem to play a major role in whether or not the slide-less loop is picked. Both appear to be infantry, based on a number of things, but of course that's all supposition and conjecture, and really tells us nothing.


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1175 ger austr, Admont, Benediktinerstift, Cod. 17

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(1130-1140) 1139 it Verona cathedral
Kai, Thank you for continuing to post excellent evidence to keep this discussion going. Where did you dig up those additional pictures of the Gloucester scabbard. Do you have any pictures of other scabbard leathers to share? I love having good pictures to reference.

I apologize for my silence but unfortunately I haven't found much to add to the discussion recently. Perhaps I should finish my scabbard as is which would at least allow me to do some more experimentation.

Something that I have been thinking about recently is the geometry of the slider. This is relevant for all eras where sliders were employed so not really focused to this topic, but I suppose it is still pertinent. I started thinking about this while doing some more testing on sliders and while reading in Covering The Blade that sliders were most often nearly flush with the outside of the scabbard instead of raised. This means that a groove would need to be cut into the core for the belt to pass under the slider reinforcement bar. This made me think that perhaps sliders were a little more sticky than I once thought. I say this because if you have a flush slider bar and you only carve out a slot directly below it you would create a curved path for the belt to follow much like a modern strap slider. This would bind on the belt especially if it was tight and keep the scabbard exactly where you placed it. Many recreations I have seen have much more space than this and slide freely on the belt. I think that having a feature like this that adds friction makes a lot of sense. I also think that it makes more sense when the slider bars are considered. With a wide opening for the belt to pass though there is very little force on the reinforcing bar and I think you could easily get away with a thin piece of wood or even just a groove in the core and the leather covering, but if you have a curved path like I show below there will be extra force on the slider bar forcing it outward which would require something like bone, antler, or a metal sheet to hold back and keep from snapping. With this in mind, the reinforcing bar shapes that we see in archaeology make a lot more sense. Planning to test this theory out in the near future and would love some thoughts.


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Kai Lawson wrote:
The first image is from 1130-1140. Not in out time period, but not wildly outside of it. I'm not proposing that it is pertinent to 11th century suspension. Rather, I post it because of the ambiguity of the sword on the far left--both in terms of typology (is the hilt broken? Is it deliberately harking back to older sword hilts?) and in terms of suspension. It looks like a slider-less wrap with a leather belt. I don't know the image context, so I can't say if it's supposed to look 'old' or not.

Second image is also not in out period of interest, and is also not to be used as insight into 11th century suspensions. I'm sharing it because it also seems to show a slide-less wrap as the sword suspension. It's interesting to see this represented (or possibly represented, if it is in fact only part of the suspension system, and some things aren't shown or are un-seeable) sporadically but continuously in an era that many would argue was integrated belts or nothing.


This style seems to be quite common, and it appears to be used in a few of the true 11th century images that we have including in the Bayeux Tapestry (scabbards 3, 6, & 7 from my third post). It also appears in many of these depictions that the wrap around the front of the scabbard is the same material as the belt. This makes be wonder how the wrap is done. Perhaps it is simply tied on somehow. In some cases there appear to be two wraps that come over the front which makes me think of a video that Tod did a while back. Have a look at 1:17-1:59 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLh3VQGrHI.
I like what you are thinking Tyler. I just got my copy of Covering the Blade, and will begin to read it thoroughly soon. The Nydam and other mose scabbard remains I've seen are flush with the scabbard exterior, as you show, and that would make sense for binding the belt. I'd never thought of that, but it makes sense to me. That being said, other scabbards from Illerup, Vimose and Valsgarde all show full movement, externally mounted scabbards, and some Avar/Sarmation/Hunnic/Alan influenced scabbards in Europe also show smaller, low external mountings; sometimes designed to show on the outside of the scabbard cover. It seems like it's a horse apiece, really.

I'll have to mock up a 'belt binding slide' and see how that works--I'll bet it helps with wear in some regards. My above point though is that we have impressions of somewhat raised bridge elements, with a history of both raised and sunken bridges. We can surmise that one type (the raised elements) were used, but how much of that is in conjunction with or along side sunken bridge elements? Hard to say. Really like the thought process though.

Keep it coming!
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