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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 27 Mar 2016

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon 15 Mar, 2021 12:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
"Half-arsed" riveting is still significantly stronger than butted


Respectfully, I disagree. Speaking strictly in terms of strength I think there's quite a bit of overlap in durability between the better quality butted mail and lesser quality riveted mail.

I still use the butted mail shirt I made in high school almost 25 years ago. It's made entirely of 8mm ID 1.4mm diameter spring steel links, and has only ever had minor repairs. I still use it for sentimental reasons. When I made the thing as a 16 year old (who was frightened of horses) I never could have imagined that one day I'd be jousting in it.

Conversely, I've handled poorly riveted mail and seen links fail just from the weight of picking it up, so I think a blanket statement that riveted mail is better than butted mail is a bit over simplistic.

Butted mail made out of mild steel-absolutely, not even worth it for scrap value.

I probably will get around to replacing my butted mail as it doesn't really cut the mustard by today's authenticity standards, but strength/durability plays no part in this decision. It's held up better than any indian made riveted mail I've come across.

Ed.
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T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 256

PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think a lot of the opinions in this thread are coming from people who've never handled the sort of mail that Mark, Isak and Tom can turn out by starting with Indian links. It's a lot like judging an Albion based on your experience with Hanwei. Tom is one of the main suppliers to the harnisfechten scene in the US. Mark's mail is ubiquitous for harnisfechten and for jousters in the UK and is pretty frequent across Europe. Isak's mail is also used for armoured and horseback combat in Europe - here's Arne Koets (in the yellow) jousting in a mail hauberk Isak tailored for him out of Indian rings.

For a moderately priced, well tailored and functional way to get mail armour, they're all really strong candidates. And Isak at least can also do you mail made fully from wire to match historical examples, if you've got the extra money and want the extra accuracy and strength.



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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
I think a lot of the opinions in this thread are coming from people who've never handled the sort of mail that Mark, Isak and Tom can turn out by starting with Indian links. It's a lot like judging an Albion based on your experience with Hanwei. Tom is one of the main suppliers to the harnisfechten scene in the US. Mark's mail is ubiquitous for harnisfechten and for jousters in the UK and is pretty frequent across Europe. Isak's mail is also used for armoured and horseback combat in Europe - here's Arne Koets (in the yellow) jousting in a mail hauberk Isak tailored for him out of Indian rings.

For a moderately priced, well tailored and functional way to get mail armour, they're all really strong candidates. And Isak at least can also do you mail made fully from wire to match historical examples, if you've got the extra money and want the extra accuracy and strength.


How do they make the rings look like proper riveted links instead of soda-can ring-pulls?

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 27 Mar 2016

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
I think a lot of the opinions in this thread are coming from people who've never handled the sort of mail that Mark, Isak and Tom can turn out by starting with Indian links. It's a lot like judging an Albion based on your experience with Hanwei. Tom is one of the main suppliers to the harnisfechten scene in the US. Mark's mail is ubiquitous for harnisfechten and for jousters in the UK and is pretty frequent across Europe. Isak's mail is also used for armoured and horseback combat in Europe - here's Arne Koets (in the yellow) jousting in a mail hauberk Isak tailored for him out of Indian rings.

For a moderately priced, well tailored and functional way to get mail armour, they're all really strong candidates. And Isak at least can also do you mail made fully from wire to match historical examples, if you've got the extra money and want the extra accuracy and strength.


yes, I have handled some work from some of these guys, and absolutely agree that they are doing great stuff. For the works they do using indian manufactured links they add another layer of quality control, as well as providing the all important tailoring.

Ed.
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Arne G.





Joined: 31 Jul 2014

Posts: 126

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
T. Kew wrote:
You can't tailor welded links.

Yes you can. The easiest way to weld a link is to use tongs to apply pressure while heating the join. It takes no longer than piercing and peining a riveted join.


Correct, but oversimplified. You need to flux the joint (Borax works fine) by heating the ring to red hot and then dipping in the flux and then get to a bright orange-white heat to clamp hard with the tongs to fuse. Doesn't always work - those rings I flattened the ends, pierced for riveting, and used that way. It is doable, though.
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