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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2021 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exactly defining what constitutes a bowie knife and what is not a bowie knife is going to be difficult....
You are right, there is considerable variation.

But with regards to fighting style, have a look at these videos:

Biddle (mostly fixed bayonet, removed bayonet starts at 0:40)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5O_I8yvxU

and compare it with Fairbairn style fighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugOHruKOh6c

You'll find two completely different concepts.

The first is based on a duelling ("fencing") type of confrontation, with the opponents similarly armed, aware what's going on and at fairly large distance from each other.

The second is assymetrical, close-in, covert and as unfair as possible.

What is interesting is that both of these videos were made during WW2.

If we come back to the definition of a bowie knife: in the context of bowie fencing, it makes sense that the Biddle approach favours a knife which is long and fairly heavy.

The Fairbairn approach, on the other hand, favours knives which can be carried covertly and produced when the opponent doesn't expect it. Then the exact shape or size of the knife doesn't really matter that much. The same techniques can be applied with a screwdriver or a pen, just as they can with the official Fairbairn-Sykes Commando dagger. Obviously the dagger will be more efficient, but if you happened to be armed with only a small pocket knife or a screwdriver, the Fairbairn method would still be feasible, while the Biddle method would not.
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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2021 11:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Exactly defining what constitutes a bowie knife and what is not a bowie knife is going to be difficult....
You are right, there is considerable variation.

But with regards to fighting style, have a look at these videos:

Biddle (mostly fixed bayonet, removed bayonet starts at 0:40)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5O_I8yvxU

and compare it with Fairbairn style fighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugOHruKOh6c


Good morning Paul,

Thanks for drawing my attention to those short films, they made bracing viewing with a cup of coffee Happy

At the risk of sounding stubbornly contrary however, I still don't see any sort of back and forth, parry riposte 'fencing' demonstrated by either of these while using knives. The chaps with detached bayonets simply slipped or ducked the incoming weapon then delivered a thrust of their own, while the chap with the shorter knife just walked up behind his adversary and stuck the knife in his back (accompanied by a very amusing and no doubt accurate statement). None of this demonstrates that knives (whether six inch commando daggers or twelve+ inch bayonets) are being used to 'fence' in the sense of a block / parry and counter attack / riposte, which has been my point throughout.

I would even suggest that the fact that the gents using detached bayonets are shown avoiding rather than blocking their opponent's blade may well point to the fact that using a knife (even a relatively long one) to block an incoming blade is not a sound martial technique whereas avoiding it is.

Again, I'm just an armchair theorist and remain open to being proven wrong!

Best regards,

Adam
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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Thu 25 Feb, 2021 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For reference, here's a link to a style of South American knife fighting employing cloaks / ponchos which enable a type of knife fighting where it seems possible to parry and riposte.

As mentioned in my original post, this is the only example I have come across where knife fighting incorporates a manner of parry / riposte - by using a defensive cloth around the lead / non knife holding hand to block the opponent's incoming blade. The cloak is also used to distract and deceive by creating a visual barrier as well as a physical one.

The video is clearly only a representation of a technique (not an actual fight) but I understand that this was a widely used method of combat at a certain time in history.

I also understand that this was a technique commonly employed by rapier fencers around the 16th Century, whereby a cloak was held in the off hand both to deceive and to defend against the opponent's weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HSrN2X3WF0
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 26 Feb, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the video from Argentina, very interesting!

I think that video, like Biddle video, shows a fencing (duelling) "mindset", for the following reasons:
- Two similarly armed opponents
- Both are willing participants
- Both employ the same "rules"
- The presence of fencing concepts like tempo, parade-riposte (evasion is also a form of parry), controlling the opponents blade (particularly visible in the bayonet fencing part), etc.

The "revolution" caused by Fairbairn, Sykes and to an extent Applegate was that those things things were thrown overboard. The reason for that is that in real life, duels are extremely rare as well as generally undesirable (for practical purposes).

To come back to the original discussion about the functionality of guards, I think it's rather stupid to use a guard to actively parry. Even moreso with a knife-size weapon, even a long one. Also parrying with the blade I find rather doubtful with blades shorter than, say, 40-50cm. Parrying daggers in rapier fencing is the exception to that, but, again, that is in a fairly specific duelling context.

Cheers,
Paul
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Adam Simmonds




Location: Henley On Thames
Joined: 10 Jun 2006

Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2021 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Hi Adam,

Thanks for the video from Argentina, very interesting!

I think that video, like Biddle video, shows a fencing (duelling) "mindset", for the following reasons:
- Two similarly armed opponents
- Both are willing participants
- Both employ the same "rules"
- The presence of fencing concepts like tempo, parade-riposte (evasion is also a form of parry), controlling the opponents blade (particularly visible in the bayonet fencing part), etc.

The "revolution" caused by Fairbairn, Sykes and to an extent Applegate was that those things things were thrown overboard. The reason for that is that in real life, duels are extremely rare as well as generally undesirable (for practical purposes).

To come back to the original discussion about the functionality of guards, I think it's rather stupid to use a guard to actively parry. Even moreso with a knife-size weapon, even a long one. Also parrying with the blade I find rather doubtful with blades shorter than, say, 40-50cm. Parrying daggers in rapier fencing is the exception to that, but, again, that is in a fairly specific duelling context.

Cheers,
Paul


Hi Paul,

I agree - guards on knives are almost always there to protect the user from their own blade - not from other peoples'.
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Gene Green





Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jun, 2021 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Way, way back I saw a demonstration of knife fighting technique by some foreign military (I believe it was a paratroopers unit).

What I remember very vividly is just how fast they were switching the hold on their knives. They spun them around so fast I could barely see the blades, just a quick flash of steel.

I'd think that a large guard would hinder this technique. Coming to think of it, most cultures with prominent knife fighting traditions, where large knives / daggers became a part of national costume (e.g. Caucasians, Yemenis etc) use daggers without prominent guards, just some widening of the handle near the blade to prevent the hand from slipping.
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T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 256

PostPosted: Fri 11 Jun, 2021 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Note that a culture having a long tradition of fighting with - and perhaps even more importantly, carrying - knives doesn't necessarily mean those knives are optimised for fighting in every respect. Guard/hilt patterns might be traditional, or they might also simply be a practical consideration of how much you carry the knife vs how often you fight with it.
HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jun, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just my take on guards on Bowies and generally on all knives that are at least meant to be used as fighting knives.

A) A short guard is needed to keep the hand from sliding onto the blade when doing a powerful thrust on a hard target: This is sort of obvious.

B) A long guard on a parrying dagger with a blade at least 12" long can be used to parry a sword, but mostly useless or nearly so in trying to parry another parrying dagger, but not likely to be able to parry a short and fast knife deliberately by aiming to intercept a small and fast blade !

C) A guard either small or long can still protect the hand from another knife by a happy accident.

D) One doesn't parry using the guard on purpose, one would normally parry using the blade of a left hand dagger on the blade of the attacker, and the guard of one's dagger would protect the hand in a bind at the opponent's sword if his blade slides down toward the guard. Also one can encourage this slide if the dagger's guard is designed to trap a blade.

Finally again in a knife against knife fight, the guard(s) does offer some hand protection, but the fencing wont resemble fencing sword against sword since the offending weapon's blade is just too short to be able to intercept deliberately since in a knife fight the hands and knives just move too quickly for sword techniques to work !

Instead a knife fight, I assume, is more controlling distance and timing plus maybe using some other object like a cloak wrapped around the off hand to parry and not the blade or guard.

Now, all of the above is opinion for discussions sake, and not meant to be taken as proven facts: It just what I think is logical ?

I do have some years of experience training with longsword in HEMA, I did take a 3 month semi-private lessons course in Medieval Fiore wrestling and dagger more than a decade ago .... Some of my training included Staff and also some sword & buckler, but 90% of my training has been with longsword. And no, never was in any real knife fights ..... Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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