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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2020 3:21 pm    Post subject: Show me your lenticular swords         Reply with quote

I have goten interested in swords with lenticular blades that are clean (ie, no fuller or ridge or something) But I have had a really hard time finding images of swords like these. So please show off your lenticular swords for me, or images you found online, anything will do
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,410

PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My Greek hoplite sword? Well, one of them, with a handy photo.



Matthew
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Nov, 2020 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's my lenticular bladed La Tene, by Brian Kerce


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Nov, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lenticular cross-section blades can have fullers. Just to be clear, you don't want to see those, right?
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2020 3:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Lenticular cross-section blades can have fullers. Just to be clear, you don't want to see those, right?

Yes, I am not interested in fullered blades. To be honest, short swords are also not what I am looking for, fancy as they may be. Rather I am looking for more conventional swords only lenticular and without fullers.

For reference, here are some swords I've found so far:



https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2016/10/probably-came-up-volga-in-longship-from.html



https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-scottish-broadsword-18th-century-straight-blade-with-a-lenticular-31695457.html



https://www.alamy.com/a-broadsword-for-officersearly-18th-century-oldca-1650straight-blade-of-lenticular-cross-sectionwith-solingen-kings-head-marks-on-both-sides-later-brass-hilt-with-central-guard-and-knuckle-bow-in-reliefthumb-ring-and-lions-head-pommel-old-replaced-leather-covered-wooden-scabbard-with-brass-fittings-length-97-cmhistorichistorical18th-centuryimperialaustriaaustriandanube-monarchyempireobjectobjectsstillsclippingclippingscut-outcut-outcut-outsthrustingthrustingshand-weaponhand-weaponsmelee-weaponmelee-weadditional-rights-clearences-not-available-image276232497.html



https://www.alamy.com/a-broadsword-dated-7-july-1815-double-edged-slightly-stained-blade-of-lenticular-section-the-obverse-with-etched-inscription-tr-with-god-for-king-and-fatherland-gilt-slightly-rubbed-brass-hilt-of-a-sabre-of-the-garde-du-corps-du-roi-with-bourbon-coat-of-arms-in-relief-on-the-knuckle-guard-three-side-bars-and-grip-strap-as-well-as-shark-skin-grip-with-silver-wire-wrap-the-guard-plate-engraved-versailles-7tre-july-1815-length-109-cm-interesting-weapon-reminiscent-of-the-day-the-prussian-troops-marched-into-paris-prussian-prussia-german-germany-militar-editorial-use-only-image247875429.html

The romano-viking sword in particular interests me and I would be especially interested in other swords like that one.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Kallander wrote:



https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2016/10/probably-came-up-volga-in-longship-from.html


My bet would be that those are fakes...
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Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also question the authenticity of the lenticular viking sword shown. It has the strange raised inlay that is seen on other fakes.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
My bet would be that those are fakes...

These were sold by Peter Finer and I'd also think they're fake.

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Spenser T.




Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some lenticular British Iron Age swords...
The Scottish sword does have a fuller, but come on, the blade past the fuller is beautifully lenticular.



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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I have been on this forum long enough to know you all despise those inlays like cats despise dogs. Like I said, I am looking for lenticular swords primarily and regardless of whether or not the viking sword is real, I doubt you'd contest the shape of it.

Having said that, I do think there is reason to not outright dismiss this particular one. Because it is a 10th century sword and because of the overall length. I'm sure many of you have read the Sylloge Tacticorum which stipulate roman infantry swords are supposed to be four spans long including the hilt. While Timothy and others think a span being 23.4 cm is unreasonable, I think they base this on poor grounds and so assuming a span is roughly 23.4 cm, this sword is just about exactly the right length of a roman infantry sword of this period (94 cm). Although I would point out saying the varangian guard mainly fought on foot is an assertion without definite evidence, if there were a sizable proportion of them who did then all the criteria for a sword like this to exist are met, wealthy infantrymen who would be required to carry swords with these dimensions and who would want hilts like these. As for the raised inlays, you should not rule out those could have been added at a later time to increase the sword's value on the antique market.

So yea, not exactly firm grounds, but the case can definitely be made and it should not be dismissed outright.
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin,

I don't want you to have to seek out a book you don't have, but if you have access to DKM's "The Sword: Form and Thought," there should be several examples of lenticular swords in there.

...I bring this up, as a project of mine was to see if I could re-create one of the swords in the catalog to see if I could match its weight and balance. I cannot recall the sword's number in the catalog, but it is a lenticular "bastard sword" of really impressive size. The thing must have been primarily intended for use from horseback, and is otherwise "stereotypically Teutonic": it's huge! I don't think it would be appropriate to make a copy of the catalog entry, but I can show you the unfinished project when I get a chance. I'll give you numbers at that time as well.
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very good, I will procure this book as soon as possible. In the mean I would be very interested in this project of yours
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 262

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin,

If you are intent on getting the book, note that there are in fact two books with the same name. One is an illustrated museum catalog, and another is a collection of academic articles.

...As an example, this is the book I'm referencing - it is a softcover (albeit a tough softcover) of relatively square proportions:

https://www.woodenswords.com/The_Sword_Form_and_Thought_p/book-sch01.htm

I will attempt to look through it tonight and see what other entries are present in there which would be of interest to you.
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 262

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2020 10:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the notable examples in The Sword: Form and Thought:

Exhibit 3: An executioner's sword: this is a two-handed weapon just over a meter long, designed to be used in two hands. A short fuller is present in the blade near the hilt.

Exhibit 19: This is the sword I am replicating to see if I can get the weight and balance correct. Over 1.2 meters long with a blade over 1 meter long itself, this is a purely lenticularly-bladed weapon. All the while, the museum exhibit weighs in at only 1.5kg, I will get pictures of my project this weekend.

...That said, I do now wonder if I overestimated the number of lenticular-bladed swords in the book; please forgive me, I did not have it when I made my previous remarks. However, I still would recommend the catalog to anyone! Note that there are other lenticular weapons, though they have substantial fullers.
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2020 2:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, buying a book for two images seems a bit unreasonable, especially when the swords in question are outliers like the short swords only in the other direction
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Kallander wrote:
Well, buying a book for two images seems a bit unreasonable, especially when the swords in question are outliers like the short swords only in the other direction


If you can afford it, buy the book while it's still available.

I've probably learned more from that book than from any other book about swords.

Granted, a lot of the information about sword design and engineering can also be found in the posts from Peter Johnsson and Vincent Chevallier here on the forum, but the book presents it in a logical format, demonstrates it with relevant examples and expands on the concepts in a few other directions.

Really excellent work and I can't recommend it enough.

Martin Kallander wrote:
Like I said, I am looking for lenticular swords primarily and regardless of whether or not the viking sword is real, I doubt you'd contest the shape of it.


Hmm, I think the vast majority of double edged Viking swords (where the blade is sufficiently preserved) has a fuller.
Maybe a few early examples (rather, likely late Migration age examples) have a Geibig Type 1 blade without fuller.
https://myArmoury.com/feature_geibig.html
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 262

PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was hoping to get a better image (with me in it!) for scale, but the results just weren't going to cut it. So, I used the floor and a tape measure instead (the qama also helps). This unfinished sword blank is again Exhibit #19 from The Sword: Form and Thought. Once finished, this should weigh in at 3.3 to 3.5lb (with the fixtures) all the while measuring in at 50" overall. It's huge.

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,937

PostPosted: Mon 16 Nov, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

19th century

An Ames m1832 (copy of the French 1816) and an early Ames 1840s militia sword

Cheers
GC



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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Mon 16 Nov, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
19th century

An Ames m1832 (copy of the French 1816) and an early Ames 1840s militia sword

Cheers
GC


Thank you, The first one is a very nice blade! I think something went wrong because the second image is a dagger with a fuller (although that is an interesting and unusual thing in and of itself)
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Mon 16 Nov, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Beeching wrote:
I was hoping to get a better image (with me in it!) for scale, but the results just weren't going to cut it. So, I used the floor and a tape measure instead (the qama also helps). This unfinished sword blank is again Exhibit #19 from The Sword: Form and Thought. Once finished, this should weigh in at 3.3 to 3.5lb (with the fixtures) all the while measuring in at 50" overall. It's huge.



Nice so far, looking forward to the finished thing!
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