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Michele Allori




Location: Rome, Italy
Joined: 24 May 2017
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Aug, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Italo-Norman Masked Helm Iconography?         Reply with quote

I Need some help, as I suck at researching the sources.

I was researching a specific type of Norman Helm, thet is featured often in various (respectable and not) online shops for armour. The helm in question is some type of evolution from the norman Nasal Helm, with a mask protruding in front of the face, sometimes constructed with a slight curve forward, sometimes straight. The top is protruded ahead with a small point, in a shape that is sometimes called "Phrygian", and most manufaturers date this 1170 ca. Everyone seems to agree this was a sicilian Helm in the 12th century, but I cannot, for the life of me, find examples of it, neither museum pieces, nor pictoral evidence.
Here's the helm I'm referring to

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/7d/a8/627da8fc7ff7addb3b2849b3bda501a0.jpg
https://www.battlemerchant.com/themes/Frontend/Battlemerchant/frontend/_public/src/img/BM_main_background.jpg
https://medieval-armour.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/e243_b.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9f/f4/5f/9ff45fe9fcfb9374a6f1d24ba68fac3c--norman-helmet.jpg
http://www.tomala.lublin.pl/obrazy/big/helm183_3.jpg



The only evidence I found is from the Fresco of the Martyr of Thomas Beckett in a church in Spoleto, here it is:
https://www.laforgiadelgrifone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/martirio-di-thomas-becket-chiesa-di-san-giovanni-e-san-paolo-spoleto-1175-ca-1.jpg
I find it hard to believe that ALL these makers based their work on a single piece of evidence, so, where can I find more evidence for this type of helm?


https://manuscriptminiatures.com/3966/11581 Here you can find something similar, but it looks more like a lining on the edge of the Maille, instead of a part of the mask

Unfortunately the photograph is really old, as the face of the soldier is now lost...

Yeah, very cool. Is it historically accurate though?
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Cameron Slatyer




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2020

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Italo-Norman Masked Helm Iconography?         Reply with quote

Hi Michele - there are a few representations of helms similar to this from period manuscripts - the Lost Tomb of Count William of Flanders (St Omer), Legend of Roland (stained glass window) Chartes Cathedral. I confess I looked up the Osprey book "The Normans" but I did check online copies of the primary sources and it does seem to be genuine. There are certainly no legitimate surviving helms that I could find... But this is way after my period of interest and there are lots of folks on this forum that know more than me. Happy
C. Henry

"Anything is possible in the fantastic Celtic twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the Gods as of reason." J.R.R. Tolkein
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Aug, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know there is a carving from the 12th century that shows them. I’ll try to post it tomorrow. I believe I’ve seen some other depictions. Guess I’ll have to spend time looking through my books tomorrow. Thanks for giving me an excuse to do so. Happy
Happy

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http://chadarnow.com/
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Raman A




Location: United States
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Mon 30 Aug, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I know there is a carving from the 12th century that shows them. I’ll try to post it tomorrow. I believe I’ve seen some other depictions. Guess I’ll have to spend time looking through my books tomorrow. Thanks for giving me an excuse to do so. Happy


Do you mean the Monreale capitals?
Code:
https://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/view/134/134


As far as miniatures go I found these, although neither are specifically Italo-Norman:

http://warfare.gq/12/Beatus-Cardena-death_of_the_2_witnesses.htm
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/3916/21732#image

I think the helms like https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9f/f4/5f/9ff45fe9fcfb9374a6f1d24ba68fac3c--norman-helmet.jpg are based specifically on art from one of the Osprey books ( https://i.imgur.com/uNPs8ht.jpg ), but what source the artist was using I have no idea as I don't think there are any extant examples, so I assume it was mostly speculative based on art. If someone has that book maybe they can check the sources.


Last edited by Raman A on Tue 31 Aug, 2021 7:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 342

PostPosted: Tue 31 Aug, 2021 12:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a drawing of a potential face-mask Norman helmet in this paper by David Nicolle

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250312376_The_Monreale_Capitals_and_the_Military_Equipment_of_Later_Norman_Sicily/fulltext/0363e6820cf2fc730945c3d2/The-Monreale-Capitals-and-the-Military-Equipment-of-Later-Norman-Sicily.pdf

See page 89, illustration 4. There is a photo of this in D'Amato and Salimbeti "The Normans in Italy 1016-1194" on page 10.

The Osprey referred to above is , I think, David Nicolle "The Normans". Plate H1 shows the helmet. The figure is sourced to the Monreale capitals and the Murder of Thomas Becket wall painting at the Church of St John and St Paul at Spoleto, both sources which we have now identified.

Anthony Clipsom
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