Anyone happen to know where this word first popped up? I'm somewhat sure I saw it in an 18th century Scottish source that used it to describe falchions, as if to imply the Persian shamshir fell under the same category. Not sure where that source was, I'll post back if I can find it. But if anyone has any info, I'd be curious to know.

Ah, looks like it was Castle who used it to define what a Falchion is: "The word comes from the Latin Falx, through the Italian Falcione, meaning a scymitar..." So that could mean that Castle was just using "scymitar" as a descriptive term, making this an irrelevant source of evidence.

Some have speculated it comes from the same root as "shamshir".

Being no linguist, I've no idea, but would certainly like to know.

Man, what I wouldn't give for "at will" access to the U of MD libraries sometimes. If I had a clue while I was in college...

If anyone has access to the massive (multiple volumes! :eek: ) dictionary that shows the roots of words - can't even remember what it's called... :wtf: I think it's the "Complete Oxford English Dictionary" or something like that. That thing is awesome for precisely this type of question.

OK... I think I'm getting it now.

Alina posted in the original thread:

Alina Boyden wrote:

They should know that a scimitar isn't a type of sword at all.

and, though I hate to cite non-source documents or information, the following does cite the OED - the source I mentioned :cool: :

Shamshir is a Persian word for "sword," which has come to refer to a type of sabre with a curve that is considered radical for a sword: 15 to 30 degrees from tip to tip. Although the name has been associated by popular etymology with the city of Shamshir (which in turn means curved like the tigers nail) the word has been used to mean "sword" since ancient times, as attested by the Pahlavi word šmšyl, and the Ancient Greek σαμψήρα (glossed as "foreign sword.")

The sword now called "shamshir" was popularized in Persia by the early 16th century, and had "relatives" in Turkey (the kilic), Mughal India (the talwar), and the ajoining Arabian world (the saif). These blades all were developed from the ubiquitous parent sword, the Turko-Mongol saber. Shamshir at times was called 'samsir'; this is usually taken to be the root of the word scimitar, though the OED considers this uncertain. Scimitar is now a more inclusive (though perhaps inaccurate) term.

Credit where credit is due - this info came from the following link:

http://www.sterlingsilvercenter.com/articles/Shamshir

So, it seems, it's just a general term of probable, yet questionable root.

An etymology dictionary I have (bit out of date now) is a bit puzzled by scimitar. Gives it as :

1548, from M.Fr. cimeterre (15c.) or It. scimitarra, of uncertain origin. Turkish would be the expected source, but no such word has been found there. Perhaps from Pers. shimshir (pronounced "shamsher," cf. Gk. sampsera "a barbarian sword," from this source), but OED finds this "unsatisfactory as to form." Many early variations; the modern spelling is from influence of the It. form of the word.

I can check the OED when I get home but it appears from the above that the OED may not have a clear answer either.

Daniel

Just checked my OED and both my etymology dictionary and the online site seem to have copied the OED entry verbatim as the first para of the OED entry is exactly the same (so much for copywrite !)

OED does go on to suggest two more:

Cimaterra ( a Basque word meaning 'sharp edged') but lists it as an unlikely source.

Cymitharra ( a sword carried by Turkish Janissaries (I think they were sultanate bodyguards but not sure) under the Ottomans). That would at least fit broadly with the date of introduction into Romance languages and the possibly the contact via Ottoman approaches to Europe but the OED seems unsure.

That's all I've got in my books.

Daniel

You guys are awesome.

Thanks for posting this question Bill!

It's one that I've often wondered about but never bothered to research. I knew that it wasn't correct in the context that it's commonly used in, but I didn't know why exactly.

The readership comes through again.

Neat!

Last small note on this, Bill.

The word (in various spellings) apparently comes up in William Shakespeare, Edmund Spenser and Ben Jonson. As they were all popular and well read poets of the late 16th to early 17th centuries and would presumably not have chosen words their readers would not understand (particularly as Dr Johnson's first dictionary was more than 100 years later), I think we can assume that the word (wherever it derived from) was commonly understood in English by the Elizabethan era.

Daniel

Here's an odd and humorous reference to scimitars, packaged as a definition: http://www.fun-with-words.com/devil_s3.html

And here at the bottom of the page is a reference to a dictionary definition of 1599: http://www.plumes.org/destreza/terms/a/alfange.html