[Gordon Frye]

Yikes! Well, that's one of the problems with riding an un-armoured horse: your armour doesn't do you a lot of good when the peasants are sitting on your chest, pounding the rondell dagger under your gorget with their helmets.

Yes, things went poorly for that gendarme...

Gordon

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

[Chad Sonderberg]

[Anthony Drew Farmer]

[Chuck Russell]

[Aaron Schnatterly]

[Chad Sonderberg]

One thing to keep in mind about knees and elbows was that the back side was usually poorly defended. The best that could be done for this area is a mail gusset (patch) or a layered cloth or leather covering. This potentially made the back of the knees and inside area of the elbows into targeted areas.

Another area common to being struck was the armpit. The same lack of defense as stated above applied here as well.

I must also make the point that beginning in the 16th century, harnesses that protected ones legs (knee cops, greaves, sabatons, ect..) became less popular and less commonly seen upon the battlefield. This during the time when pikes and polearms began nearing their peak of popularity and heavy swords began to decline, being replaced with rapiers and small swords.

[Matthew Kelty]

[W. R. Reynolds]

Okay, having fought in custom 15th century armour both on horse and on foot, I would have to agree with Anthony that using the hilt of the sword to try and pull an armored opponent out of the saddle will more than likely result in the loss of the sword or fingers or both. The saddle that I use is a Paso and fairly close to and looks like a light medieval one. It has a high cantle and a high wide flat pommel that protects the groin area and is really stable and comfy. It is doubtful that a snag of the type mentioned would unhorse me. I am currently saving for a custom war saddle. Don?t forget that the horse and rider are a team. If I were closely surrounded by pesky footmen I would spin the horse around to keep them at bay or just ride through them. Try to remember that the social classes of people we are talking about were probably riding horses from about the time they could walk and would be very skilled equestrians. Also take into account the working partnership that develops between a horse and it's rider over a period of time. IMHO the armour on horseback game is 90% equestrian skills and the rest to weapons. The best way to get at the knight is to kill the horse.

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
?One thing to keep in mind about knees and elbows was that the back side was usually poorly defended. The best that could be done for this area is a mail gusset (patch) or a layered cloth or leather covering. This potentially made the back of the knees and inside area of the elbows into targeted areas.?

Actually the fan portion of the couter and poleyn do a pretty good job of protecting their respective areas from any slashing attack. To get in there you would have to use the point of the sword or a dagger. The mail ?gusset? is called a voider and is attached to a padded arming doublet by points. In my opinion, I haven?t done the research; the back of the leg to include the knees would not have had a voider if wearing full plate. Any mail in contact with the saddle makes for a very slippery and unstable ride. Correct me if I?m wrong here but during the full mail period (not one I?m really into) the legs were protected by the mail shirt, split front and back for riding and coming down to the knees on either side and by mail chausses coming up to mid thigh. This leaves the seat of the rider and the inside of the upper leg in good friction contact with the saddle. Oh, and lets not forget the shield on the left and the sword on the right.

Anthony Drew Farmer wrote:
? Okey dokey.. now the joints have those little radar-cone covers over them; armpits, near the knees and such for improved mobility, yes? Is it concievable one could potentially whack those suckers off? I'm not particularly experienced with armor personally, but from what I've seen of designs those things appear to be on hinges. A good swing might knock it out. Or, a good solid swing with a heavier blade might give a nice jerk in their step.?

The ?little radar-cone covers? or fan plates are an integral part of the poleyn and couter and are not riveted on. It would be nearly impossible to nock one off and almost equally hard to bend one in on a properly constructed suit of armour. All surfaces have a three dimensional curve to them giving them strength and a deflecting surface. If a decorative flute, angle or sword stop is added it makes it even stronger. The ?hinges? are riveted articulated joints of overlapping plates giving added strength to the area (almost always in the case of legs) or sometimes suspended from internal leathers (arms) making for a floating joint. In any case the joints will either resist the blow or move with it. I have fought full contact with two handed and hand and a half swords and the blows that have landed on me are hardly felt and skid off leaving little in the way of dents and scratches. To get to the man inside the armour you need to half sword and punch the point through a link in the mail voider or under or between a set of plates. You have to be really careful with this technique when sparring with a friend. Have not been hit with a pole arm yet nor do I care to be, so I can?t answer to that.

Anthony Drew Farmer wrote:
?Is it concievable a lightly-medium armored fellow may roll and slash with a heavy sword to knock out a knee(not take it off, but destabilize the combatant)??

Personally I would not want to be rolling around on the ground in a battle much less doing it under a horse. Been there done that.

Anthony Drew Farmer wrote:
?It appears the knight would have a bit of trouble moving quickly/bending to swing so low at a more agile attacker, wouldn't they? Someone needs to set me straight here I think?

Not necessarily so. Medieval war saddles had a bar that came about halfway down the ribcage on the horse giving it incredible lateral stability. This makes for a great fighting platform that you can lean into and out of. I have ridden in Jeff Hedgecock?s custom war saddle and it ain?t goin? nowhere. It really holds you in place. If the knight was using a period can opener (axe, mace, war hammer) with a short haft he could still probably reach his opponents on the ground. The medieval warhorse was not the giant drafts that a lot of people think. Period horse armour would fit a modern horse between 15 and 16 hands so you are not really that far off the ground that you couldn?t reach a foot soldier. Don?t forget the maneuverability of the horse. On foot? No problem! A good suit of armour only weighs about 60 lbs and is very easy to move in. At demo?s and events to prove this I have done pushups and sit-ups (yeah, the sit-ups are hard with a back plate on) and if I could still walk on my hands (at 55 years old I just can?t do it anymore) I would do that also. At one event a member of the public challenged me to a 50 yard dash. He got me going out of the hole but I won the race, in period footwear no less!

I will be going to a timeline event in early July and will try to remember to take some pics on foot and mounted of the armour areas in question.

[Chad Sonderberg]

[W. R. Reynolds]

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"My guess was that this was common among the commoners on a battlefield, but horses were even more expensive in those days as they are now. I'd think it would be more profitable for a noble to capture his opponent's horse. You must do what you can though..."

Frame of referrence was to footmen. If it comes down to you or the knight, the horse has gotta go. You can always ramsom the knight or sell his armour if you have to kill him.

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"All teachings I've read regarding attacking an armored opponent states that all strikes should be made with the point because slashing attacks are useless."

Coverd that: "To get to the man inside the armour you need to half sword and punch the point through a link in the mail voider or under or between a set of plates. You have to be really careful with this technique when sparring with a friend." Most of the fechtbuchs from the period cover this.

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"Your correct about the voider, I couldn't remember the correct name. A gusset is the armpit area of a mail shirt. I think the voider for the knees was dependant upon the time frame as they began to be used less and less in the late 14th century and pretty much disappeared in the 15th century."

Not sure but I think the entireity of the mail areas were referred t o as voiders.
Higgins Armory Museum "A General History of Armor" Pg. 8

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"I must point out that by the 15th century (high gothic era), shields had pretty much faded out as longswords and polearms became more popular. "Knights" (I use this term loosely) began to rely on their armor, rather than using a bulky shield."

You are correct. By the 15th century the armour protected the knight well enough to render the shield virtually obsolete. My reference about the shield was for the chain mail era only. Sorry about any confusion.


Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"There are 3 types of articulation common for armor. The first is called "Floating Articulation" which consists of two or three leather straps riveted directly to the back of the plates. One is positioned on each side with usually one in the center. This form was also used to supplement the other two forms by being used in the center of the joint to keep the plates from separating.

Covered that: "sometimes suspended from internal leathers (arms) making for a floating joint."

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
The second type is a simple "Pivoting Rivet" which creates a single pivot point for the plates to move with changing position. These are common in armor throughout the middle ages (1000-1300) and high middle ages (1400-1700).

Covered that: "The 'hinges' are riveted articulated joints of overlapping plates''. Google "high middle ages" and the concensus seems to be 1000-1300. Same with "late middle ages", anywhere between 1300 and 1527 after which comes the renaissance period. I would have to say that the articulated joint didn't show up until the early middle to late transitional period of armour when plate was worn over mail, roughly about the time for the Hundred Years War (1337-1453) to start in the early 1300's. CHAIN MAIL PERIOD, 1180-1250. CHAIN MAIL REINFORCED, 1250-1325. THE CYCLAS PERIOD, 1325-1335. THE STUDDED AND SPLINTED ARMOUR PERIOD, 1335-1360 ....of course chain mail has been around since the days of the Roman Republic possibly as early as 300 BC.

Chad Sonderberg wrote:
"The third type of articulation is a "Sliding Rivet" which is a rivet with an oval cut hole allowing it to slide upon a track. This form didn't become common until the later 14th century."

My frame of reference was to the knee and elbow joints, 'couters and poleyns'. To the best of my knowledge the sliding rivet was not used in these areas to provide the hinging effect referred to by Anthony Drew Farmer. I have seen an example of a sliding rivet at the end of the elbow joint on a vambrace to allow a rotary motion of the forearm. If you can find a referrence to sliders being used for the elbows and knees I would really like to see it. I have also dabbled in making armour and it would make for a fantastic bit of documentation.



[/b]

[Chad Sonderberg]

[Allan Senefelder]

Chad and WR there are pics floating around here somewhere of the Maximillian right leg I bought(c1530) which I belive show the slot rivets throughout. Every plate is slot riveted. The range of motion is fabulous! A quick run through a few books turned up the following other examples/pictures of slot riveting(when we had the pleasure of spending the weekend with Chris Poor of A&A who's an avid collector he said it was done to almost everything in his collection)
1) the gothic mitten gauntlet on page 47 of Arms and Armor The Cleaveland Art Museum
2) the gusstes of the breast plate shown in plate 39 of Imperial Austria Treasures of Art Arms andArmour from The State of Styria
3)gussets of breast plate for armour for a youth in plate 51 of same book
4)the inside shot of a gothic gauntlet on page 178 of Arms and Armor of The Medieval Knight
5) the outside set of rivets for the tassets and fualds of the Wladislas armor on page 180 of the same book.
6) page 232 of Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction theres a great shot of the inside of a pair of late 15th century leg harness which showws both floating and slot rivet articulation
7) page 247 of the same book has a great shot of the inside of an arm from the 14th century Voight of Matsch armour using slot riveting in an unusual aplication to allow the bracer to rotate.

I think theres also pictures around here of a tasset c.1560-70 that is slot riveted on the outside articlation points that I own to. The two lower lames of a pauldron c1570 that I sold off a bit back are around here to and have slot riveting for the articulation on the back and two floating/leather articulation points for the front.

[W. R. Reynolds]

[W. R. Reynolds]

[Allan Senefelder]

WR i'll do you one better i'll shoot a couple of close ups of the slotting on the leg tommorow and post them tommorow for you.

[W. R. Reynolds]

Thanks Allen

[Gordon Frye]

On the issue of saddles, Bill is dead on the money with his comments about the stability of the late-Renaissance Arming Saddle. What with all of the straps, girths, stablizer bars and the proper fitting of the saddle to the horse's back, it's no problem at all to lean over to the side of the horse to smack those pesky foot soldiers carrying pole-arms.

On the subject of horse killing, in the early 16th Century it was an accepted, though considered ungentlemanly, tactic, mostly reserved for when you're in a tight spot. Later though, manuals such as J.J. von Walhausen and John Cruso specifically mention that ordering your troopers to aim either the lance or the pistol at the horse was an acceptable and indeed sometimes laudible tactic. In general, LOTS more horses than men died in battles in those days. Bigger target, less armour. And as Bill mentions above, if you kill the horse but capture the man, you have the added bonus of ransom money to consider.

Gordon

[Allan Senefelder]

WR here's an inside and out side shot of the slotting on the plates of the knee and one of the slotting on the plate at the top of the cuisse.

[W. R. Reynolds]

Allen,

Verrrrry cool pics. THANKS, have never seen that before. My period of focus has been WOTR and Burgundian (Charles the Bold) so this is a little later type of armour. I might however have to try and experiment with that type of joint someday, if for no other reason than to see how it moves.