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William Fox
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 Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2020 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Al Pendray and John Verhoeven came close to discovering the secrets of Wootz.
As a starter, why not watch a superb documentary on Youtube called 'The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4
| Daniel Parry wrote: | That's a nice pattern. Much better than the ones I have visually as mine are more opaque - harder to see the grain or pattern.
At least I got something right about the construction methods ! Slightly similar appearance but very different routes to get there. Looking at good quality antique wootz blades they sometime seem to have a wavy pattern, sometimes a speckled pattern almost like little stars. Is that a difference in production method ? Also I like the less polished, smokey grey finish a lot of them have which is attractive.
Interesting that your shamshir shape falls exactly in between the types I posted on my shamshir/kilij post. Hilt style seems closer to the earlier, heavier one I have but blade closer the other narrow, curved one.
I think my other question (sorry to bother people but this is something which interests me but I am not sure on): I understand pattern welding I think and have read a number of explanations on that. What is the difference between wootz steel and the sort of Damascus steel you see on modern custom knives etc: are these fundamentally different approaches ? .
I have a friend in Japan(my wife's friend's husband) who is a metallurgist(and a very good one apparently - used to work in industry but now teaches at one of the top universities there) who has had as a hobby for a number of years been trying to recreate 'true damascus' (without great success apparently !). Now my understanding is true Damascus is wootz pre-17th century ? Then the technique was lost to a degree ? Is that right ? So what is the difference between that and the later Damascus steel ? And then between later wootz and modern Damascus steel you see on knives ?
Any help you guys can give would be great as really want to understand this better but I find some articles I find either too general and uninformed or too scientific and cant understand them. |
That which does not kill us, makes us stronger
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks William. I will watch.
And so is modern Damascus on knives a different process altogether ?
Thank you for your help.
D
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Johannes Zenker
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| Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2020 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: |
And so is modern Damascus on knives a different process altogether ? |
Yes, creating Wootz and other crucible steels is an entirely different process than pattern welding, which results in what is has for some time been commonly referred to as damascus. The patterns are generally made visible by etching the steel with ferric chloride, oxidizing different types of steel to different colors. (The Japanese Hada pattern is a bit of an exception: it is not made with the intent to create a contrast-rich dark-light pattern through etching, but was from what I know originally done to purify the material and is now appreciated for its more subtle patterning compared to western damascus.)
Pattern welding can be done in various different specific ways to create different patterns in the steel by forge-welding layers of different steels together. Hence the name "pattern welding".
Common patterns that people create nowadays are feather damascus, ladder damascus, raindrop damascus, random damascus, sharktooth pattern damascus and twist damascus, even though there are many more.
Random pattern damascus is basically the result of simply folding the steel, as is also done in Japanese swordmaking to create the Hada pattern.
If we're talking about the early medieval era we commonly see folded steel resulting in a hada along the edges combined with twist damascus for the core, as was done for the piece in the first post of this thread. That one shows three bars of alternating and interrupted twist damascus in the middle, followed by what looks like raindrop damascus and ultimately a hada pattern for the edges. (edit: technically it's not really a hada, as that would require stacked layers of the same steel type, whereas random damascus is effectively the same but with alternating layers of different steels)
Quite a stunning piece. The flaws and inclusions are technically avoidable with modern steels and machines, but complex forge-welding like this piece, which appears to have been constructed from five to seven individual damascus pieces, is a lot more prone to errors. As Dan pointed out, if the sword is made with bloomery steel the flaws are a lot more likely to occur.
As for what William should do with it, I'm confident that if he ultimately decides that he won't be keeping it AND Rob denies a refund, he'll still be perfectly able to sell it on without a big financial hit. I probably wouldn't be deterred by the flaws if the artisan(s) behind the piece assure me that they're not a relevant structural flaw, but I'm on another continent and don't have that kind of money to spend anymore.
Last edited by Johannes Zenker on Fri 13 Mar, 2020 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Johannes
I won't comment on the sword in question as beyond my competency, although I did think it was attractive.
This is useful. I have been looking at various articles on wootz and Damascus. Japanese sword manufacturing I understand a bit better (and had the pleasure when I lived in Japan of seeing a Japanese sword polisher at work which was very interesting, via a friend whose family had been sword collectors and appraisers for generations).
Fighting my way through nanotubes, nanowires, decarbonisation and ductile rims, it seems that a lot of the wootz steel quality may have come from the particular qualities of the ore that was used ? And that once that ore was exhausted, the techniques, whilst sophisticated, weren't able to produce the same quality of steel as before. But I think I get the very basics of the process.
The articles also explained, I think, where you get per my previous email laddered or wavy patterns but also speckled, grey patterns which don't seem to have as much 'damascus' patterning, which may be due to the different Khorasan and Taban styles but also due to steel produced from smaller ingots apparently not producing as much pattern ? Lots of question marks as that is what I am taking as first impression.
Then modern Damascus steel, as you see on knives often, is different again as it is a composition of different types of steel/ore which are folded over and over to create a blended ingot and when that is forged and then etched so those different mixed materials show up as patterns ? So different to wootz, different to pattern weld.
Sorry for taking this thread off track a bit !
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Dave M.
Location: United States Joined: 13 Jun 2020
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun 14 Jun, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps those inclusions could be covered with silver inlay etc. I mean you've gone full out on this sword. I find it sad that such a show stopper can't be salvaged in some way. Adding the Ulfbehrt name or some other type of historical inlay could be a boon to an already stunning piece. For the cost imo, you shouldnt have to hide blemishes or settle for them being there.
"A cleaved head plots no longer."
Viking Wisdom.
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Markus Fischer
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| Posted: Sun 14 Jun, 2020 11:07 am Post subject: |
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These pits are unaccaptable on such an expensive sword. Tell the maker that you want to have a new one made.
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Robert Muse
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jul, 2020 9:43 pm Post subject: Sword |
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I've owned two of his swords, one was very good, the other had a BADLY canted blade. If you held the sword you could see that the tip was about two inches out of true.
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