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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: How/what did these closure thingies work/look like         Reply with quote

Title pretty much says it all, I am looking to sow a 12th century roman soft kit and seeing as these closure thingies are very aesthetically pleasing to me at least in pictorial form I would like to include them. I have however been unable to find any surviving examples of them and thus have no clue about how they work or what they really look like in real life. Any ideas, surviving examples or other information would for this reason be greatly appreciated!


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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,291

PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are known as frog closures, or frog fasteners. A quick Google search, or Wikipedia check should bring a number of examples. Basically you have a knotted cord which acts as a button going into a cord loop.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mart! Follow up question would then be if there is a certain kind of thread I should use if I want to be as authentic as possible or if whatever the various peoples of the 19th century used for their frog closures is sufficient.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wouldn't they be the proverbial "Knight's Tale" toggles?
"Eh...green. Um...trimmed in a kind of...pale...green...uh, wi-with, uh...wooden toggles."

Frog closures more tied to Asian/China influences.

Medieval toggles<------>Renaissance (more loopy) frogs

Cheers
GC

A quick example, toggle in the middle. Straps or cord to the garment.
https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Pebble-Leather-Toggle-Fastener/dp/B078T2FVPP
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I kind of doubt that it is a wooden toggle closure, mostly because it is depicted as being entirely golden in the Skylitzes examples and the Octateuch one being curly at the ends. These things may not be impossible to achieve with the kind of toggle you linked, but to me at least it appears to be a lot more feasible to do it with a frog closure (ie, use a golden thread to get the colour and those curly things seem to be common for frog closures)
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Toggles were not always wood and quite ancient. You may be regarding the cord or strap anchors as frogs.

The imagery you share appear to me to be toggles.


Cheers

GC
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not really familiar with any of these terms, what exactly is the difference between a toggle and a frog closure?
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