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Michael Long
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 Posted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Kristjan Runarsson wrote: |
indifferently: without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic.
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The archaic meaning of indifferent is along the lines of 'mediocre'.
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Kristjan Runarsson
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| Posted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice.  How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack. |
We covered that In a previous post, so take your pick:
A jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone.
A jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone.
A jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it.
A jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."
As for expectations, a 30 layer jack will be more expensive than you think.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kristjan Runarsson wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack. |
We covered that In a previous post, so take your pick:
A jack of 30 layers of linen can stand alone.
A jack of 25 layers and a leather shell can also stand alone.
A jack of 10 or more layers should have a maille shirt with it.
A jack that is several layers of canvas stuffed with raw wool, grass, horse hair or what ever they would've had and used.
And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausses. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."
As for expectations, a 30 layer jack will be more expensive than you think. |
Thanks! But how to make sleeves equally strong but that you can flex your arms?
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Kristjan Runarsson
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| Posted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Thanks! But how to make sleeves equally strong but that you can flex your arms? |
That depends on the period and culture, what period and country are you aiming for? Quite frankly I have not given it much thought. However, I have seen people solve this problem of arm movement in really thick layered jacks in all kinds of way most of which are cheating, like using 2-3 layers of wool blanket inside the layered jack instead of 30 layers of linen/cotton. I saw one guy who actually made the sleeve thinner at the inside of the elbow and under the armpits but I have never seen that on anything in artwork or a surviving garment. One method that appeals to me is this 14th century idea:
Notice how the sleeve is in two parts and it is pre-bent at an angle. Also, there was often a sort of bulge, or bag, at the bottom of the sleeve where the two halves of the sleeve are sewn together for your elbow to fit into when your arm was sharply bent towards your body. The same would be done for the shoulder joints, you would pre-bend the arms a bit outward. I have not tested this idea with a 30 layer jack.
Mind you earlier layered jacks (12th-13th century) were not as complex pieces of tailoring as this. A good place to look at fabric armour of that period is the Morgan bible:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible
Notice the two guys at each end of the image and how the torso part of the jack at the shoulder seems a bit beefyer than on the sleeve side. This is a much less sophisticated piece of tailoring, basically just a couple of tapering arm tubes sewn to a torso tube like a viking age tunic. It may be that the sleeves on early jacks were thinner, i.e. had fewer layers than the torso part of the jack but I'm just guessing here.
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Jonathan Dean
Location: Australia Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun 01 Dec, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | As interesting as this whole disscussion has been, I really would like some practical advice. How to design a layered jack to be capable of being a standalone armour and to be flexible enough to fight in it properly? At the moment I'm not really interested what would be more or less expensive back than as I reenact a proffesional soldier, but I'm trying to decide between combination of armours and standalone layered jack. |
As mentioned at the start of the thread, I'd recommend John Howard's "doublet of fence" over the Louis XI jack, as we know that the transcription is accurate:
| Quote: | | for every quarter 18 folds thick of white fustian, and 4 folds of linen cloth, and a fold of black fustian to put without, and for every back quarter 16 folds of white fustian, and 4 of linen cloth, and one of black for the covering; and for the sleeves 1 fold of black fustian, and 6 of white, and 2 of linen cloth |
With that said, I've just tracked down the original manuscript that Louis XI's ordonnance came from and am in the process of trying to get a copy of the page (the MS hasn't been digitised). Hopefully I'll have it some time early next year.[/quote]
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 05 Dec, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Also we have the tests by michael edelson, whatever value they have
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Len Parker
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 4:29 am Post subject: |
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the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though.
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Agreed. I was a bit surprised that 28 layers of linen would stop a two-handed spear thrust.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. |
I'm not sure I'd agree they are worth nothing. One of the problems we have is testing the effectiveness of armour against heavy bows at common battlefield distances. It is easier to get a consistent result at short ranges, like the 30 ft in this example. I've seen the suggestion in other tests that a weak bow at a short distance can stand proxy for a stronger bow at longer ranges, because we actually know a lot about the fall of of arrow velocity and impact energy with distance. Ok, the experiment isn't rigorous enough or well documented enough to stand on its own, but it is perhaps indicative that these armours would have had an effect against lower energy arrows, either at a distance or of lighter pattern or both. But agreed we would need better designed experiments to quantify this.
Anthony Clipsom
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Michael Long
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| Posted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: |
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though. |
The tests are useful by analogy. For instance they prove the linen is better against bodkins than broadheads, which should hold true for more powerful bows as well.
This may have been obvious from the start, but arrow performance is not always so intuitive. We would expect a paradozing arrow to penetrate less well, but paradoxing actually seems to help.
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 07 Dec, 2019 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Long wrote: | | William P wrote: |
the test with the bow isnt worth anything being a very weak bow by medieval standards. the spear tests are more informative though. |
The tests are useful by analogy. For instance they prove the linen is better against bodkins than broadheads, which should hold true for more powerful bows as well.
This may have been obvious from the start, but arrow performance is not always so intuitive. We would expect a paradozing arrow to penetrate less well, but paradoxing actually seems to help. |
weve kind of known for a while that needle like points dont fare well at piercing layers of heavy cloth without some ability to slice
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 13 Mar, 2020 7:59 am Post subject: |
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After some hard thinking, I decided to make my own layered jack (with my grandmother's help ). It has 25 layers of linen and linen/hemp cloth and sleeves will be thinner, though I'm not yet sure how much thinner.
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Sat 14 Mar, 2020 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Best of luck Luka. Make sure to update us on your progress.
Éirinn go Brách
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 15 Mar, 2020 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | Best of luck Luka. Make sure to update us on your progress. |
Thanks! Now I need to sew shoulders together and add lacing or buckles in the front...
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 17 Mar, 2020 12:13 am Post subject: |
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It is done! 25 layers of linen and linen/hemp mixed cloth. It is npw wearable but I will probably add 10 layer sleeves later.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Tue 17 Mar, 2020 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Interesting to see how self-supporting it is Luka. How stiff does it feel on?
Anthony Clipsom
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Wed 18 Mar, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | Interesting to see how self-supporting it is Luka. How stiff does it feel on? |
It is quite stiff. Well made coat of plates or brigandine is more flexible. If it was longer, it would have to have a broad skirt like a plate breastplate because otherwise I wouldn't be able to bend down. Basically, although it does flex somewhat, suppose it has to be tailored like a plate to function properly.
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Interesting results. My conclusion would be that almost impenetrable combination against all types of arrows would be light padding, mail over it and thick jack over mail. Pretty much what crusaders are described wearing when surviving Saladin's rains of arrows.
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