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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Scabbard project for the Albion Next Gen Knight         Reply with quote

I've decided to make an honest attempt at a scabbard for my Next Gen Knight. While this project is still a long way from finished (both in time and effort), I thought I might share as it progresses. This is my first rodeo, so I don't expect it to be a cake walk... I figured the project may be of interest, and I know I will need to have a question or two answered along the way. A cheering section / support group is also nice to have... Razz

Please note, that in the interest of saving loading time for everyone, these pics are smaller than the ones I have posted in my myArmoury personal photo album, which can be accessed via the "albums" link at the very top of the page.

To begin with, I found what I felt would be suitable stock. What I decided upon was a pair of straight and true 1/2 x 3 x 4 pieces of poplar "project wood" that I was able to score from the local Lowes for about $7. I marked the centerline down both pieces for a reference for the blade. Next, I centered the blade on the wood, and traced the silhouette on each piece.






Next, I pulled out the Dremel and a variety of sanders, grinding stones, cutting points, and whatever else I could muster up. I began to carve out the area for the blade, regularly returning to the blade itself to try to keep the profile and distal taper of the scabbard close to that of the blade.







Progress continues here, where I looked at shaping the mouth of the scabbard to the cross-section of the blade proximal to the hilt. Continued measurements and fitting of the sword to the wood aided in determining the profile needed at the mouth of the scabbard. The red lines detail where the thickest part of the blade is, on the outer edges of the fuller.






Carefully, I was able to match the blade's cross-section fairly closely, as can be seen here:



This "fuller filler" runs down into the scabbard about an inch, beyond which, the fit is less contoured.






Again, I test-fitted the blade to the scabbard. I found that some areas were still a touch too tight. I marked these areas along the edges, and then colored the area in with ink. Returning to this area with a sanding wheel made quick work of this - once the ink was all gone, I tested again, and found a satisfactory fit. I believe I was something like 6 hours into the project by this point.




The other half was done the same way, though a lot more efficiently. I was a lot less timid with this half, finishing it in one pass in about 90 minutes.

Having completed both halves, I lined them up and clamped them together. The clamps were tight enough to hold, but not deform the wood. I wanted to judge the fit and effect as if it were simply glued together. I found the fit to be snug enough to hold the sword in when turned almost upside down, but still easy to draw. Cool



And another look at the mouth... the lines are the outline of the guard, which I will use to help shape the outside once I get to that point.






After this, I took it back apart, lightly sanded the inside down, and blew out all of the remaining dust. I took some wood glue, diluted it slightly (a couple drops of water in a medicine cup half-full of glue), and worked it into the scabbard interior. Once this dries, I will lightly sand it again, ensuring no spots are particularly high or rough. I will then piece it back together and check fit again, and make any adjustments I need to make. The glue layer is very thin, so I doubt I will have to work it any. I hope to be able to glue the halves together this afternoon, and continue work on it again tomorrow.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks good so far Aaron. It appears that you're off to a good start.

You should take better care of your Knight. There's something on the grip, it's looks all red and nasty. Razz

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Scabbard project for the Albion Next Gen Knight         Reply with quote

Aaron, this is great stuff. Keep it coming.
Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
...After this, I took it back apart, lightly sanded the inside down, and blew out all of the remaining dust. I took some wood glue, diluted it slightly (a couple drops of water in a medicine cup half-full of glue), and worked it into the scabbard interior. Once this dries, I will lightly sand it again, ensuring no spots are particularly high or rough. I will then piece it back together and check fit again, and make any adjustments I need to make. The glue layer is very thin, so I doubt I will have to work it any. I hope to be able to glue the halves together this afternoon, and continue work on it again tomorrow.

What is the purpose for the wood glue in the scabbard interior? Why did you dilute it slightly?
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Looks good so far Aaron. It appears that you're off to a good start.

You should take better care of your Knight. There's something on the grip, it's looks all red and nasty. Razz


Thanks, Patrick!

Oh, and I think that's staining from all those dead noodles... Razz

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Scabbard project for the Albion Next Gen Knight         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
Aaron, this is great stuff. Keep it coming.

What is the purpose for the wood glue in the scabbard interior? Why did you dilute it slightly?


Thanks, Steve! I'm hoping the project continues to go well. You've asked two good questions. I'll try to answer them...

I put the glue inside to seal the wood. I found the poplar to be a bit "sticky" while working with it - though I still intend to oil the inside, I didn't want oils or saps from the wood to spoil the blade. Now that it is dry, it has, indeed, left the surface pretty rough. I'll sand it very smooth before gluing the halves together.

I diluted it slightly to help thin it out - since the scabbard is snug already, I didn't want it to go on in a thick layer. Also, by thinning it a bit, it flows down into the grain and fills any small cracks. I didn't want to wet it down too much, though... wanted to keep the wood at it's current moisture. Also, I intend to thin the walls a bit, and I hope this will add a touch of structural integrity. I will seal the entire surface of the scabbard's wood core before wrapping it in leather. This will serve to seal it from moisture - it shouldn't swell or shrink (much) that way.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005 6:39 pm    Post subject: Knight Scabbard         Reply with quote

Nice work. Let me know when you start taking orders as my Knight is ready. Wink
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Scabbard project for the Albion Next Gen Knight         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
...I put the glue inside to seal the wood. I found the poplar to be a bit "sticky" while working with it - though I still intend to oil the inside, I didn't want oils or saps from the wood to spoil the blade. Now that it is dry, it has, indeed, left the surface pretty rough. I'll sand it very smooth before gluing the halves together.

I diluted it slightly to help thin it out - since the scabbard is snug already, I didn't want it to go on in a thick layer. Also, by thinning it a bit, it flows down into the grain and fills any small cracks. I didn't want to wet it down too much, though... wanted to keep the wood at it's current moisture. Also, I intend to thin the walls a bit, and I hope this will add a touch of structural integrity. I will seal the entire surface of the scabbard's wood core before wrapping it in leather. This will serve to seal it from moisture - it shouldn't swell or shrink (much) that way.

OK - the need for sealing makes sense. Also, thinning out the glue makes sense for the purpose you described. But, I don't understand the reason why you would prefer to use glue as opposed to "some other material"?
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Scabbard project for the Albion Next Gen Knight         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
OK - the need for sealing makes sense. Also, thinning out the glue makes sense for the purpose you described. But, I don't understand the reason why you would prefer to use glue as opposed to "some other material"?


Honestly, Steve, in hindsight, this probably wasn't the best move. Fortunately, when I sanded it smooth, almost all of the glue came back out. The benefit was, however, a smoother surface inside, as a couple of gouges were filled in nicely. Once sanded completely down to a nice surface, I sealed the core's inside with a good couple of coats of boiled linseed oil. Not only does it work really well, but it smells good, too.

I accomplished a lot on the core today. I have some photos to edit and upload, then will be making another post with the progress.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: Scabbard mouth profiles         Reply with quote

One important point does not seem to be comming up in this forum. Anyone starting a DIY scabbard project needs to recognize that not all swords have a full length fuller or a full length diamond profile. All photos of example cores that I have seen in the forum are really only good ideas if the basic blade profile (diamond or fullered) is the same for most of the length of the blade.

I have been making different types of scabbard cores and experimenting. In this case the sword is an Albion Crecey Grete, which you may be able to see from the photo is actually my well used practice sword (blunted) at this point. It has a fuller that only runs about 1/3 the length of the blade. The beginning of the diamond profile ridge is just about as thick as the ridges of the fuller near the guard. This means that depending on insertion of the sword into the scabbard at a sloppy angle, I may need full clearance anywhere within a 3/4" wide slot at the center of the scabbard mouth. A nice fuller type mouth is feasible if it is cosmetic and very loose, but blade insertion/withdrawl can jam up very easily.

Four example cores in the photo. The first two on the left are cloth lined, and the cloth yields as needed when the thick spine of the diamond profile passes through. You can tip these scabbards close to vertical and the sword does not fall out. The one second from the left is fiberglass / epoxy laminated and a 200 lb man can stand on the center of it while only the tips are supported. The 3rd sword from the left (unshaped poplar) has a canoe shaped mouth. You can drop the sword in from any angle and it will center itself true. Unsheathing is similarly non-fussy. The far right scabbard is walnut and simulates the fancy fuller geometry that several have posted. This is actually very loosely fitted near the fuller, however the curvature causes the diamond cross section spine to hang up unless insertion/withdrawl is done very carefully. I advocate the canoe shape scabbard mouth for any sword with a fuller than only runs half the blade length or less.

Jared Smith



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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Today was a very productive day for the scabbard project.

I started by sanding out the interior. Most of the glue I put in yesterday to seal it was very thin. Most of it came up with the sanding, but a couple of nasty gouges did get sealed and leveled out nicely. I resealed the interior with a couple of coats of boiled linseed oil. Good for the wood, good for the sword, and smells nice.

Once the oil had set, I glued the halves together with exterior grade wood glue. After the glue set, I took the clamps off, and drew the silhouette of the blade on the outside of the core. I then placed lines approximately 1/4 inch from the edge to give a guide for the profile of the scabbard. In the first two pictures below, I ground the top profile away with a benchtop disc sander with 60 grit abrasive. The third shows both ground away, approximating the profile the core will take.








Again, with the benchtop disc sander, I started to bevel the edges.






Continuing to bevel and eventually round the edges and sides, the scabbard began to really take shape.






The core was tuned and fine-sanded using the benchtop belt sander at 120 grit. This is how it turned out:







The walls of the top half of the scabbard are approximately 2.5 - 3mm thick, the bottom slightly thicker. It's surprisingly sturdy, and will be more so once treated with a couple of coats of linseed oil. As a friend said - it's a scabbard, not a boat paddle. Thin is historically correct.







And a couple of pics of the Knight tucked safely away. The scabbard is still nice and snug, holding the sword securely in place when turned point up, but is very easy on the draw. Cool








Next step is to finish the core with a couple of coats of oil. Time spent today: 5 hours. This included time spent taking pictures, which does eat up a bit. Also, progress went faster as time went on - not bad for the first time I've used a disc sander... Razz

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared,

I think the issue is one of cross-section rather than fuller length. On a blade like your Crecy the blade starts out with a diamond cross-section and then has a fuller machined into it. Consequently, the blade's cross-section will be thicker at it's center near the point end. This will cause the drag you're experiencing during insertion. On a blade with a lenticular cross-section this isn't the case, so the length of the fuller won't matter.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but trying to illustrate that there are as many ways of doing these things as there are types of swords.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Scabbard mouth profiles         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
One important point does not seem to be comming up in this forum. Anyone starting a DIY scabbard project needs to recognize that not all swords have a full length fuller or a full length diamond profile. All photos of example cores that I have seen in the forum are really only good ideas if the basic blade profile (diamond or fullered) is the same for most of the length of the blade.


You do have a good point, Jared... the scabbard should be appropriate for the sword. In the case of the Knight, this works quite well. Others would potentially need a different design.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Knight Scabbard         Reply with quote

Lance Higgins wrote:
Nice work. Let me know when you start taking orders as my Knight is ready. Wink


It's been a really fun project so far. So far. There's still a LOT to do...

Thanks for the compliment! Hope to have it finished by the R/T - you can check it out in person then! Big Grin

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject: Additional scabbard making tips         Reply with quote

I churned out another pair of scabbard slats (just hollowed out) tonight. I am down to about 4-5 hours per pair now. Several things have proven useful.

Shaping that final 2" near the mouth is easy if you just wrap coarse grit sand paper around the sword near the hilt and saw it back and forth against the slat. This is probably reasonably effective for most swords regardless of the cross section type. It is also very fast!

To test the draw force, clamp all but the last 8 to 10" of the slats closest to the mouth. Insert and withdraw the sword. If the slats have to separate visibily, more sanding is needed. If you don't see the slats separating, and like the force, move the clamps towards the mouth and repeat the draw test. Clamps near the mouth simulate the final fit.

1/2" thick and 1/4" thick scraps of wood (about 6" long) used as sanding blocks really sand tapers more perfectly and just about as fast as any dremmel tool can.

Loosening the scabbard fit after it has been glued can be done by placing a strip of sand paper onto the sword with about 6" of the sword drawn out and carefully working it back and forth into the glued scabbard. I was able to sand surfaces as far as 8" inward from the mouth this way.

Tightening the fit of the scabbard after it has been glued can be done by spreading some thined glue ( I really like the use of water and wood glue that has been put forward in this forum series) onto the first 2 to 3" of the sword and sheathing it, cleaning it, sheating, it.........A very fine degree of control is possible.

The canoe shape or shallow trapezoid trough profile should work pretty well for most shapes of swords with distal thickness reduction regardless of fuller (partial, double, single, etc.) as long as the sword is not hollow ground. If the cross section is really wierd (gets thicker near the tip) you will probably need a cloth lined scabbard.

For this rapidly produced pair of all wood slats, I just chose a router bit wider than the fuller area and cut the entire fuller length as a flat rectangular channel about 1/2 the overall fuller thickness, but slightly wider than the fuller area along each slat. Only the cutting edge flats of the blade participate in the final fit of the sword into the scabbard. Forget the center geometry. The outline profile of the blade and some tapers that roughly match the angle of the cutting edges are all that is needed to guide the sword in. After drawing an outline of the sword on the center line, position the sword at various lengths of insertion and estimate the angles that the fullers could be at if the sword were inserted crooked. Machine all possible fuller and diamond profile widths flat and slightly wider than they may end up if the sword is not inserted straight and you will not have any trouble inserting the sword into the scabbard with your eyes closed!

Jared Smith
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George C.




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

DUDE, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. I'M SORRY I HAVENT READ THE ENTIRE LIST OF REPLYS, BUT FROM THE FIRST LOOK AT THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SCABBARD I KNOW THIS WONT WORK. THE BLADE WILL TOTALY GET STUCK AND OR YOU WILL END UP DESTROYING THE WOOD THROUGH TIME.

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WERE THINKING.
IF YOU REALLY WANT THE THROAT/ MOUTH OF THE SCABBARD TO HUG THE BLADE THEN YOU COULD TRY THICK LEATHER ATTACHED LYING FLAT (TOPPING) ON THE MOUTH OF THE SCABBARD AND SHAPED TO FIT THE BLADE JUST LIKE YOU HAVE IN THE PICTURE OF THE CLAMPED SACBBARD.
USING THICK LEATHER WOULD ALSO KEEP THE NOISE DOWN AND WATER OUT AFTER WIDENING THE TOP HALF OF THE SCABBARD.

AFTER READING SOME OF THE OTHER REPLYS I NOTICED THAT A MEMBER HAD STATED MY INITIAL THOUGHT, WHICH WAS THE FIRST HALF OF THE SCABBARD SHOULD BE MORE OPEN, AND THEN THE LAST HALF SHOULD MATCH THE BLADE.
THIS WOULD ALLOW FOR A GOOD HOLD AND A QUICK IN AND OUT. (SOUNDS LIKE MY EX-WIFE).

I USED TO MAKE A LOT OF CUSTOM KATAN SWORD HANDLES THAT ARE MADE THE SAME WAY AS A SCABBARD, AND I'VE BEEN GATHERING SUPPLIES LATLEY TO START MAKING SOME SCABBARDS.
ANYBODY ELSE EVER START SHOPPING IN THE HOME DEPOT AND GET THAT OVERWHELMING FEELING OF "WHAT IN THE HELL HAVE I GOTTEN MYSELF INTO?"

HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT OF USING A RESTRAING STRAP, LIKE YOU WOULD ON A GUN HOLSTER?
EVENTUALY AFTER ENOUGH USE, THAT TIGHTNESS YOU HAVE FROM MOUTH ALONE IS GOING TO LOOSEN UP.
ON THAT SAME NOTE, HOW OFTEN DO YOU REALLY HANG UPSIDE DOWN WEARING YOUR SWORD?
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE REST OF YOU, BUT I'M TOO DAMN OLD TO BE DOING FLIPS.


IF ANYBODY NEEDS ANY HELP WITH IDEAS, JUST FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME.

JEDI GEORGE IV
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George, can you please refrain from using all caps for future messages?
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A strip of leather near the mouth could help make a tight fit, but when you can do the same with just shaping the scabbard it seems like that might be an extra step. One that isn't needed as in period they just shaped the mouth of the scabbard and sticking as close as possible to how things were done in period is half the fun. It is for me anyway.

I just reread the post and think maybe you were just talking about a rainguard. I had a mental image of a piece of leather in the mouth of the scabbard.
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George C.




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 11:25 pm    Post subject: SCABBARD MOUTH SHAPE         Reply with quote

HELLO, MY PRIMARY CONCERN WAS FOR FUMBLING AROUND WITH RE-INSERTION OF THE BLADE.
IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WOULD REALLY NEED TO CONCENTRATE ON LINING THEM UP, INSTEAD OF ROLLING THE TIP INTO THE MOUTH.
MOST OF MY EXPERIENCE IS WITH THE SAMURAI SWORD.
BROAD SWORD SCABBARDS ARE ABOUT TO BECOME MY NEW HOBBY.
THE RAIN GUARD EFFECT YOU MENTIONED WAS AN ADDED BONUS IN THE IDEA TO KEEP THE BLADE DRY, QUIET AND SECURE. IT WAS JUST AN IDEA.
BEING PHYSICALLY DISABLED LEAVES ME WITH A LOT OF TIME FOR THINKING UP NEW AND DIFFERENT IDEAS.

AFTER READING THROUGH SOME OF THE OTHER POST'S I'VE COME TO REALIZE THAT IF THIS IS WORKING FOR OTHERS, THEN IT'S NOT AS BAD AS I THOUGHT.

THE MENTAL IMAGE OF THE BLADE THAT I HAD WAS DIFFERENT.

THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY, I APPRECIATE IT.

GEORGE

JEDI GEORGE IV
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George, welcome to our small community and thank you for your participation. I hope you enjoy it here. One thing: please don't type in ALL CAPS. It is not only very difficult to read, but in the Internet culture, it's considered shouting. Thank you. Happy
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Jeff Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Apr, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent thread Aaron and it looks great... I plan to do the same for my own Crecy so I'm watching this thread closely!
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