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Gabriel Stevens
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 Posted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Okay Jon's origin is one of the primo discussion topics on Martin forums and though the Lyanna/ Rhaegar theory is probably the most popular there's a glich. See at some convention George and his girlfriend (don't recall her name) sat down with a group of fans just to chat and talk in a more relaxed setting. Anyway one fan brought up that theory. George just smiled but his girlfriend piped up and said something like "Do you really thing George would do something that obvious?" Anyway there are alot of theories out there and Jon is only one mystery that surrounds Ned. Personally I think George's girlfriend was just trying to throw everyone but then it is Martin we're talking about so I guess we'll just have to wait. I doubt any of it will be any clearer after the fourth book but at least we get to meet the Red Viper's daughters, I bet their just going to be a riot.
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Martin just posted that the new book is done...well sort of. Here's the link:
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/done.html
I think he's made a real brave choice dividing the story as he is, but at least the wait for the next book should be much shorter.
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Geoff Freeman
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Stevens wrote: | Martin just posted that the new book is done...well sort of. Here's the link:
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/done.html
I think he's made a real brave choice dividing the story as he is, but at least the wait for the next book should be much shorter. |
Actually, as he explains it, I think I will like the end result. At least insofar as that the story arcs for each character will be more fleshed out. Kinda stinks that Jon won't be in the story for FEAST, but he's not the only character that catches my interest.
And also as he said, DANCE is now almost half-done.
Geoffrey C. Freeman
Durendal Fencing Club
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Vince Labolito
Location: Tallahassee, FL Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh...finally!
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: Yay!! More books to read! |
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To be honest, if it gets stuff published I certainly won't complain. In some ways I actually kinda like the idea of the split between A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons: the events in Westeros, especially those King's Landing will all be happening in ignorance of what's going on in the wider world and the characters will br plotting and following their own agendas blissfully unaware of what the bigger threats may actually be.
It'll be an interesting (and, actually, typically GRRM) twist for us, the readers, to suddenly find ourselves in the same position as Jaime, Cersei, Kevan et al and to get caught up in all the plays being made in the game of thrones without knowing when and where or how bigger events will be about to overtake them!
Yes, I'll miss seing the POVs from some favourite characters but then ADwD will be all the more intersting for that - and when I come to re-read them at a later date I will still have the option to flit between the two books and read a few chapters from each in parallel - as if it really was one huge book. If GRRM thinks he's happy with doing it this way and he's found an approach that works for him and his publishers then I for one won't presume to question his decision!
Roll on September/October! 
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Wait a minute though... it also mentions several times that Jon Snow looks an awful lot like Ned where the rest of the Stark children favor the Tully's... I guess you could say that Ned and his sister look a lot alike but... |
A common thread in this series is the strength of a bloodline. Examples:
Baratheon blood trumps virtually everything, hence why all of Robert Baratheon's bastards look like him.
Targaryen blood gets trumped BY everything, hence why they are severely inbred-- it's the only way to keep their children looking like Targaryens.
Tulley blood is strong blood, hence why 4 out of 5 of Catelyn Stark's kids look like Tulleys. Or Stark blood is weak blood. Either way...
So, the chances of the descendent of a Stark actually LOOKING like a Stark is about 20%, unless said Stark breeds with a member of a family with weaker blood... *cough* TARGARYEN *cough*
Makes sense, don't it? 
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if this is accurate. The point of Robert's bastards all looking like him was particular with Baratheon couplings with Lannisters. In every instance there the Baratheon blood held true. Other specific families aren't really mentioned.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Stevens wrote: | | I don't know if this is accurate. The point of Robert's bastards all looking like him was particular with Baratheon couplings with Lannisters. In every instance there the Baratheon blood held true. Other specific families aren't really mentioned. |
I highly doubt that every woman Robert had a bastard with in King's Landing was a Lannister. I don't think Gendry was a Lannister...
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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No but the specific mention of the Baratheon blood being strong was specifically pairings with Lannisters. That's how Jon Arryn (and Ned) knew that Joffrey and the other kids weren't Roberts because every historical pairing of Baratheon and Lannisters ended up favoring the Baratheon side. Other than that there's no real mention of one bloodline being stronger than another.
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Geoff Freeman
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Stevens wrote: | | No but the specific mention of the Baratheon blood being strong was specifically pairings with Lannisters. That's how Jon Arryn (and Ned) knew that Joffrey and the other kids weren't Roberts because every historical pairing of Baratheon and Lannisters ended up favoring the Baratheon side. Other than that there's no real mention of one bloodline being stronger than another. |
And this is specifically what Jon Arryn was saying in his cryptic quote to Lysa: "The seed is strong."
Lysa being the woman she is took that to mean her son, Robert Arryn, who is, as we have seen, not strong.
Just an aside, there is a site that has a number of portraits done of the characters of ASoIaF, some of which Mr. Martin has called "exactly as he had pictured them." Petyr Baelish, Theon Greyjoy, and Lysa Arryn were the ones he was referring to, IIRC.
This is the site: http://amoka.net/eng/gal/asoiaf/index.html
Geoffrey C. Freeman
Durendal Fencing Club
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Jason Elrod
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: Happy yet sad |
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Working for Borders Books has it's advantages. While I wasn't able to go this year, the BookExpo America is running this weekend in New York. I had one of the other managers in my district hunt down information on my favorite authors and pick up any promotional material and free books.
Well Cindy did a great job. She got me George Martin's signature on the forward of "Feast for Crows" due out in November. 
That's all the info I have for now but I'll post more once she get's back to work on Tuesday and I actually get the information in hand! Man I wish I would have been there myself. I have so many questions that I want to ask. The one year I can't go and George is there. . . The only thing that makes this tolerable is knowing that if I'm lucky I'll get an advanced reader of the book about a month before it becomes available for general sale. Hehehehe!
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2005 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Stevens wrote: | | No but the specific mention of the Baratheon blood being strong was specifically pairings with Lannisters. That's how Jon Arryn (and Ned) knew that Joffrey and the other kids weren't Roberts because every historical pairing of Baratheon and Lannisters ended up favoring the Baratheon side. Other than that there's no real mention of one bloodline being stronger than another. |
I hadn't taken it as a specific reference to previous Baratheon-Lannister pairings (I don't recall reading that anywhere). It seemed to me more that Jon Arryn was simply pointing out that ALL of Robert's illegitimate children, whoever the mother was (and there were plenty of them so the evidence was fairly compelling!), looked very much like him and it was therefore highly suspicious that NONE of those who were supposedly "his" children by Cersei Lannister looked even vaguely Baratheon.
Aaaaaagh! The Summer is really gonna drag while I'm waiting for A Feast for Crows...!! 
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Wilson wrote: |
I hadn't taken it as a specific reference to previous Baratheon-Lannister pairings (I don't recall reading that anywhere). It seemed to me more that Jon Arryn was simply pointing out that ALL of Robert's illegitimate children, whoever the mother was (and there were plenty of them so the evidence was fairly compelling!), looked very much like him and it was therefore highly suspicious that NONE of those who were supposedly "his" children by Cersei Lannister looked even vaguely Baratheon.
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That was what I got out of it, too. Remember also that Ned Stark first caught onto what Jon Arryn discovered when he first came across Gendry at the blacksmith's shop. I remember Martin ending the chapter with Ned saying something along the lines of "but what would they want with a King's bastard?"
By the way, are there any brits on this board? If so, could someone PLEASE volunteer to take Mr. Martin on a field trip to handle some pieces in the Tower collection or something? Despite the fact that he writes an excellent story, I couldn't help but cringe when I read some of the fight scenes. To see someone with so unique a writing style make such mundane mistakes (just about every other fantasy novelist makes the same misconceptions about arms and armor as well) just pains me.
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: Field trip... |
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| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: | | By the way, are there any brits on this board? If so, could someone PLEASE volunteer to take Mr. Martin on a field trip to handle some pieces in the Tower collection or something? Despite the fact that he writes an excellent story, I couldn't help but cringe when I read some of the fight scenes. To see someone with so unique a writing style make such mundane mistakes (just about every other fantasy novelist makes the same misconceptions about arms and armor as well) just pains me. |
Well, me for one... 
If any of you are ever going to be in London and would like to go see the Tower, the Wallace Collection or some other museum of interest - let me know! I live on top of all this stuff but, as is usually the way, it also means that I never quite get round to going to see it all! I haven't been round the Tower since I was a kid!!  
B
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ned (and Jon Arryn before him) goes through a list of Baratheon and Lannister pairs throughout history noting that all of them favored the Baratheon side. That was the compelling evidence, not the fact that all of Robert's bastard's favored him. It was that historically all of the B&L pairings favored the Baratheon side without exception. I let someone borrow my version of A Game of Thrones or else I'd quote the specifics. Its just before Ned confronts Cersei.
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Sorry - I've found that reference too: it's a flashback recollection of Ned's and it's right in the middle of his conversation with Cersei in the Godswood in King's Landing. You're right - it's a combination of the genealogical evidence from the book and the physical appearance of Gendry, Barra and Robert's other natural kids that convinces Ned of what Jon Arryn had found out.
This series is so darn complex - I still find new stuff every time I re-read bits!
B
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Jeff Hsieh
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: | | By the way, are there any brits on this board? If so, could someone PLEASE volunteer to take Mr. Martin on a field trip to handle some pieces in the Tower collection or something? Despite the fact that he writes an excellent story, I couldn't help but cringe when I read some of the fight scenes. To see someone with so unique a writing style make such mundane mistakes (just about every other fantasy novelist makes the same misconceptions about arms and armor as well) just pains me. |
Misconceptions? How do you mean? While there are a few little terminology issues here and there I have never really picked up on any major A&A misconceptions in the books (and let's face it, medieval weapons terminology is not very well defined anyway). I have always thought the fight scenes to be savagely realistic and very well done. Not to mention they serve the needs of the story and cahracter development very well.
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Well sometimes George does describe knights as wearing boiled leather under chain under plate which would make the armor probably somewhere in the area of about two hundred pounds. He's also stated that the series is influenced by the War of the Roses but he describes the knights as wearing great helms sometimes and other pieces from earlier periods. He kind of mixes and matches the usual fantasy elements in. Great swords and war hammers are huge (Robert caving in Rhegar's chest through his breast plate?) That kind of thing. Jon drawing his hand and a half sword over his shoulder is another.
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Careful how you use quotes - that's Jeremiah's comment, not mine!!  #
Having said that, I do agree - there are one or two minor inconsistencies in GRRM's use of armour - although the apparent anachronisms regarding armours from different historical periods don't actually bother me too much; this is, after all, a fantasy world of his own creation. Let's face it, though, the huge stag-antlered helms ascribed to one or two of the Baratheons would be MOST impractical in battle!! As for Jon drawing Longclaw over his shoulder - I don't think so, not unless he wanted to do it hand-over-hand! I guess it's a convenient way to CARRY a long bastard sword like Longclaw though - but it would hardly be helpful if you need your sword in a hurry! I guess there's always the claymore/greatsword back-sling type of arrangement...
Anyway, see below for some more relevant information from the man himself. It took me a while to find this (I knew I remembered reading it somewhere!! ), but I thought the information might be worth posting here as it addresses some of the points raised above. I do apologise for the length of the quote though!!
The information is all taken from correspondence with GRRM, quoted in the "So Spake Martin" section of "The Citadel" at www.westeros.org: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/
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QUESTION: What is a typical Westeros knightly armour like? Is it actually a true full plate, resembling European suits of second half 15th - 16th centuries, or a composite suit of plate and mail, like European suits of the previous period (at the time of Agincourt, for example)?
Westerosi armor does not correspond one to one with any single period in European history, but I suppose it is closest to the armor of the Hundred Years War. Not only Agincourt, but also Crecy and Poitiers before that. Of course, there were important changes in armor between each of those battles, but there were also holdovers, individuals who had used or older armor, styled from the earlier period. I took that trend considerably further in Westeros, and felt free to mix armor styles from several different periods. You will also note that Westerosi armor tends to "later" styles as you go south. Plate is more common in the Reach say, while mail is more the rule in the North, and beyond the Wall the wildlings have very crude primitive stuff.
[Martin also mentions in another reply that the armour worn in Dorne s lighter and of a different style because of the heat]
QUESTION: It seems that in Westeros knights still use their shields actively, but in Europe the true full plate was rarely combined with a classical hand-held shield.
That's true. Again, I was looking for to Crecy and Poitiers... and to the Crusades, even earlier. I wanted shields for aesthetic reasons. Shields are cool, as are heraldic surcoats. Alwhite plate, the traditional "knight in shining armor" look so beloved of film directors, strikes me as visually boring, except in the highly elaborate Milanese style, which is gorgeous to look at in a picture but pure hell to try and describe in words.
QUESTION: Also, is the helmet more like an armet of the 16th century (that is, a true close-helm with a closely fitting round visor and close protection of the chin), or like an end-of-the-14th- -century pointed-visored basinet?
I have mixed and matched helms from different periods, though I don't believe I have mentioned any armets. The "halfhelms" I mention are classic Norman helms from the Hastings era, conical helmets with open faces and a nasal bar. I also have knights in greathelms, both visored and closed, and a few that could be described as basinets, though I don't believe I use that term. To the mix I have also added a few pure fantasy constructs -- the elaborately shaped "beast" helms worn by Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane, and a few other champions of note, wrought in the shape of maned lions, snarling dogs, or what have you.
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Hope that's of interest to at least some of you!
Kind regards,
B
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Gabriel Stevens
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Good post, I'd never read those from So Spake Martin. But I always envisioned the knights wearing 14th and 15th century harnesses.
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