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Bart Walczak





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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Somebody wrote that mortslag is mentioned only in Talhoffer and is an out-of-place technique.

It's not true. From my research it seems that Mortslag (or donnerslag in other texts) is everpresent when fighting in armour. You can find it in any text dealing with armoured combat - Lignitzer, Hundsfeld, Gladiatoria, Czynner... Even Fiore says that in armour you should turn your sword into an axe...

Lignitzer has Mortslags delivered from head to ankle, and believe me - when thrown at the proper time and distance, this thing works.
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks, Martin! I'm pretty positive you are referring to duct tape. Pretty similar to the construction listed on the ARMA site, but a bit different. It seemed in the video clip that they handle fairly well, and without inflicting too much damage on a friendly foe.


No problems Aaron!

Yep thats it, duct tape. Yes it´s a modification on the ARMA construction. We have a problem with one of them though, the type of wood in it is a little bit to flexible and in infighting (Brenshien,sp?) its hard to get it to hold aginst some moves and it just flex away. In "normal" longsword sparring they handle quite good and are more ballanced as later longsword types. More tip control and a little bit more agile, just as we like ém Big Grin

The trick is to make the handles quite long and the loss of padding in the tip is compensated by less weight in the tip and less mass in the tip. Doesn´t take as much wind... hehe...

Hope you going to like them.

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
Hope you going to like them.


Doubt the construction of these will happen this month, as I have to go back out for a couple of weeks come Wednesday. When I get back, however... Big Grin

I'll definitely keep you posted on how they turn out.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't apologize on your form, Joachim! Hey, anyone with the guts to post their bouting on the internet deserves credit for doing so!

Bart Walczak wrote:
Somebody wrote that mortslag is mentioned only in Talhoffer and is an out-of-place technique.


Hi Bart,
You might be referring to me, and if so, that isn't what I meant. I meant that Talhoffer shows it a lot in the blossfechten section, moreso than most masters when discussing fighting out of harness. Believe me, I totally agree with you about "turning your sword into an axe" when discussing armor!
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bill !

As Joachims punching bag I can tell you that he´s form wasn´t that bad, but normaly I would not get such an easy hit as I do in that clip. What the cameraguys missed was when he got a bit warm in his clothes and landed a pretty strong knee in my guts when I got cocky and thought I could get him in Kampfringen insted of hack him down with my dagger....

hehe

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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On gripping the pommel or not... I spent last Saturday's practice session specifically experimenting with both ways (Purpleheart longsword wasters with scent-stopper pommels, with and without gloves). Based on this alone, it seems to me that having the hands closer together gives you better speed and maneuverability in arcing cuts, such as would be employed with an earlier "grete warsword", while gripping the pommel increases point control and leverage, and would thus be more desirable for the later, more thrust-oriented schools of longsword combat. I also feel it makes quick, short snapping cuts with the front or false edge more effective, while the hands-closer approach feels more comfortable for doing "moulinets" and similar things.

Overall, as a gross generalization, one could say that the wider hand-space lends itself better to short, linear techniques, while the tighter grip is more suited to flowing, circular motions. (To me, this seems to echo a vague sort of general trend in the historical development of European swordsmanship at large. Interesting to note is that, somewhat more recently, Korean swordsmanship went through a similar change from a hands-close-together grip to a more widely spaced one as influences from Japan and elsewhere kept creeping in.)

Possibly one reason for the decreasing popularity of, and the scent-stopper's triumph over, the less-grippable wheel pommel as we move from Medieval times towards the Renaissance...?

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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Overall, as a gross generalization, one could say that the wider hand-space lends itself better to short, linear techniques, while the tighter grip is more suited to flowing, circular motions.


I've generally found this to be the case as well, Mikko. I think you have summed this up nicely here.

One could look at baseball and billiards for examples to illustrate. I don't recall seeing a power slugger knock one out of the park with his hands separated as if to bunt. Likewise, I've not seen many be too successful in shooting billiards in any form with both hands on the butt of the cue. Separation of the hands will create a fulcrum. This can be at either the front or the back hand (thus changing the class of lever and the movement created, but that's a more detailed physics lesson that I'll avoid unless someone wants more info). This separation also generates a line, as there are 2 points of contact to define the motion or vector of the blade. The other side of this coin is that with both hands together, there is only a single point of contact, but all force is focused upon that point, generating considerable force. (Arguably, both hands choked together still is 2 points, but the proximity is such that the force is generated approximately where they meet. Some adjustment, rotation, etc. is still possible, of course. This is a generalization, afterall Razz ).

An interesting third kinematic study would be that of how one swings an axe to chop wood. Hands start separated, but during the swing, this distance closes. The initial separation provides excellent tracking and alignment, defining the plane of motion and arc of the swing. A great increase in power s then generated by the proximity of the hands and subsequent synergy of both arms for the strike.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Don't apologize on your form, Joachim! Hey, anyone with the guts to post their bouting on the internet deserves credit for doing so!


I agree. Happy But would that clip been filmed last summer the fight would have been much more intense and the distance a lot closer. Personally I've lost about 7kg of muscle in the past few months so... it's no wonder really if I'm being a bit overly self-critical when it comes to my form. Happy I'll try to get back in proper fighting shape until we post any new clips though. Razz

Best regards,


Last edited by Joachim Nilsson on Tue 19 Apr, 2005 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
Hi Bill !

As Joachims punching bag I can tell you that he´s form wasn´t that bad, but normaly I would not get such an easy hit as I do in that clip. What the cameraguys missed was when he got a bit warm in his clothes and landed a pretty strong knee in my guts when I got cocky and thought I could get him in Kampfringen insted of hack him down with my dagger....

hehe


Yes, that was indeed a sweet moment. Although the one thing I would really have loved to see filmed that day unfortunately wasn't. Sad What I am referring to is when you single-handedly took out three opponants, of whom two were wielding swords, by using a rondell dagger. Impressive indeed. Guess my harsh, fascistoid drilling and training of you payed off. Cool Razz

But, gentlemen, we are digressing. Back to the original subject: Mortschlag. Also featured in for instance the 1467 Ed., and as mentioned by Bart, is the Donnerschlag. I am curious as to what kind of interpretations you guys have on that one (as it stands in relation to the Mortschlag). Talhoffer seems to use the term Donnerschlag only at a particular occasion and the term Mortschlag the rest of the time. Thought? Interpretations? Educated guesses?

/Martin's personal pin cushion
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Joachim!

Donnerschlag, Mortschlag, and Schlachenden Ort (Battering Point) are all different terms for the same blow. Martin Huntfeltz calls it Donnerschlag, Andres Lignitzer calls it Mortschlag (and describes targeting several parts of the body with it, as well as how to counter each variant), and Liechtenauer himself calls it Schlachenden Ort. It is interesting that Talhoffer uses two of those terms within the same manuscript.

All the best,

Christian

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
It is interesting that Talhoffer uses two of those terms within the same manuscript.


May it be that Hans Talhoffer has taken it a step further and make a differens between Mortschlag and Donnerslag?

The grip is somewhat different between them in the 1467...

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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2005 4:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Hi Joachim!

Donnerschlag, Mortschlag, and Schlachenden Ort (Battering Point) are all different terms for the same blow. Martin Huntfeltz calls it Donnerschlag, Andres Lignitzer calls it Mortschlag (and describes targeting several parts of the body with it, as well as how to counter each variant), and Liechtenauer himself calls it Schlachenden Ort. It is interesting that Talhoffer uses two of those terms within the same manuscript.

All the best,

Christian


Yes, I know. What I find puzzling, and was searching for views on, is that Talhoffer uses the term Donnerschlag for one technique -and one technique only- in the 1467 manuscript (if I'm not mistaken.) The rest of the time he uses the term Mortschlag. Any ideas as to why he makes this distinction? I have one theory, but it's weak, and I want to hear other opinions first before I say anything.

Best regards,
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Bart Walczak





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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I second Christian, but there might be something in Talhoffer too...
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Nov, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*bump*

Just thought that I'd update you gentelmen on the status of the "Talhoffer project" Martin and I mentioned earlier in this thread:

All the interpreted techniques are filmed. The material just have to be edited, some reshoots have to be done and text and plate material added. Without going out too much on a limb here I think it's pretty safe to say that we'll be good to go late Q1/early Q2 of this year.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey, very cool, Joachim! That's funny, I was just thinking about your project yesterday.
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Hey, very cool, Joachim! That's funny, I was just thinking about your project yesterday.


LOL! Talk about a coincidence. Have you learned anything new/gained any new insights since we last discussed the subject that you'd like to bring up for discussion?
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not on the technique itself, no. Though based on some discussions with others, I no longer believe Talhoffer's fechtbuch is an advertisment like I stated way back when. There's too much evidence against that line of thought. Rather, it appears to be more of a collection of techniques for his patron, Leutold von Konigsegg, and his other students to use as a memory aid, so to speak, of certain "tricks". I still don't think of it as a "manual" in the modern sense of the word, in that it does describe the foundation of the art, but rather a "reference guide". Happy
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--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Not on the technique itself, no. Though based on some discussions with others, I no longer believe Talhoffer's fechtbuch is an advertisment like I stated way back when. There's too much evidence against that line of thought. Rather, it appears to be more of a collection of techniques for his patron, Leutold von Konigsegg, and his other students to use as a memory aid, so to speak, of certain "tricks".


Exactly. This is totally in line with what we believe. We aim to touch upon this in the presentation.
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Talhoffer project has been put on hiatus indefinately.
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