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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Oct, 2018 4:06 am    Post subject: Wearing Full Plate Armor without mail?         Reply with quote


Source: https://www.facebook.com/pg/gfworkshop/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1139688512845399

All of us here probably have seen re-enactors wearing sets of full plate armor but discarding the underneath mail protection that was supposed to be worn for the exposed parts of the body. I never knew with this was ever historical at all, but bothered me when I saw a modern descendant of the Médici Family doing a re-enacted ceremony with two bodyguards with plate armor but without the mail (the garment and the harnesses were all well made though).

I never saw any artistic evidence for that, but I know that being partially armoured was something that garrisons and noblemen would generally did. So, is it historical at all?

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The armour you have posted in your image looks to me to date somewhere between circa 1400-1425 AD. Having a look at manuscript images from a varieties of places, there seems to be almost no evidence for cloth without mail, and ample evidence for mail being used wherever there were gaps in the plate armour.

One possible exception is the following image from Germany; http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4478/12002/. However, I would be careful when interpreting this image. Is it really that Tryphon has no mail armour, or is it simply the case that he has an arming garment worn over top of the mail? It's impossible to say. Even if we assume he has no mail underneath, this image is one out of literally hundreds that I reviewed from France, Italy and Germany, the Czech Republic, England, the Netherlands, Spain.

If the visual evidence from manuscript illustrations is a reliable guide, I think the answer is that it would be exceedingly rare to almost never.


Last edited by Craig Peters on Sat 03 Nov, 2018 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Tan





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dug around for some pics of guys in armour without mail. Sure seems that mail was more common but no mail does seem to be a thing


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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark,

The first image shows a soldier with what looks like partial brigandine, so it's unlikely he has no protection. The second image may show a soldier with only arming garment sleeves to protect his forearm, yet he could have mail underneath. This image is indeterminate at best. In the final image, we simply have a type of surcoat over top of armour. The cross hatching signifies mail, so both the man in green has mail (his bishops mantle and presumably elsewhere as well) and the soldier in brown definitely has substantial mail reinforcement.

These images do little to support the idea of exposed arming garments without additional protection-whether mail or brigandine. Two out of the three images actually reinforce the idea of supplementary armoured protection.
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the first image depicts cloth-covered plate, given how the rivets are arranged.

The second image shows a brigandine, with a visible mail collar. The cloth sleeves might cover mail, but they also might not; it's feasible, but IMO not evident enough to use as evidence.

The third image, indeed, shows soldiers wearing coats over their armor, including visible mail collars on all and mail sleeves on at least one. (And the two coatless soldiers whose forearms are visible also have them colored metal grey, too, just without the cross-hatching.)

Of course, art is not photography and we have no idea of the extent of artistic license in these images, so any conclusions drawn from them should be taken with a handful of salt.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 5:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What about tournaments and hastiludes? Since combats at both were meant to be non-lethal at such events (well, as non-lethal as swinging swords or charging with blunted lances could ever be), would maille have been worn under plate harness? Going without maille would have made things lighter for participants.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko,

Regarding the first image Mark posted, could it not be splint armour covered with fabric? The vertical rivet lines on the arms seem to suggest it.
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Mikko,

Regarding the first image Mark posted, could it not be splint armour covered with fabric? The vertical rivet lines on the arms seem to suggest it.

Could be, yes! There's really no way to tell for sure unless we somehow find the actual suit depicted.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
One possible exception is the following image from Germany; http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4478/12002/. However, I would be careful when interpreting this image. Is it really that Tryphon has no mail armour, or is it simply the case that he has an arming garment worn over top of the mail? It's impossible to say. Even if we assume he has no mail underneath, this image is one out of literally hundreds that I reviewed from France, Italy and Germany, the Czech Republic, England.

If the visual evidence from manuscript illustrations is a reliable guide, I think the answer is that it would be exceedingly rare to almost never.


Those jupons have mail underneath, it was a quite universal practice and I'm sure inventories and other evidence supports it. At worst, those armors would be made of mail+jupon and plate pieces like gauntlets and leg harness. Lafayette C. Curtis said to me that was by itself a considerable protection, but it could (and was) sometimes used with arm harness and a Coat-of-Plates. When white cuirasses start appearing they were generally worn over the jupon, but I can't say properly why: that basically explains half of the iluminature: the other part can be explained by the fact that you cant wear elbow and shoulder plate pieces while using a jupon or other sort of garment; a solution that contemporary men-at-arms found for that was using the elbow pieces over the jupon, but given how atypical it was I would say that most of them were just fine with that they were already using.

Rare artistic evidence for rerebraces:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy_-_Grandes_Chroniques_de_France_%28c.1415%29%2C_f.152v_-_BL_Cotton_MS_Nero_E_II.jpg

Shorter sleeves was also a option for those for wanted more confort:

https://br.pinterest.com/pin/517491813429123319/

Cronistic Evidence for the use of CoP under the jupon, Lancaster's squire commented about a portuguese knight killed at the Siege of Lisbon (1385):

Quote:
You say truly, for I saw more bodies transfixed at these assaults than I ever saw before in all my life. We lost one whom we much regretted, Senhor Joao Lourenço da Cunha, who was struck by a dart that pierced through his plates and his coat of mail and a gambeson stuffed with silk, and his whole body, so that he fell to the ground.

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Henry O.





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The use of mail with plate armor seems to have gradually lost popularity during the 16th century. This may have been in part due to the use of thicker metal plates convincing soldiers to ditch the mail parts of their armor to save weight, or because "munition"-quality plate and "almain rivet" had started becoming much cheaper or easier to create than mail. By the late 16th century, some sources considered mail in particular to be a health hazard since bullets would often drive some of the iron links into the wound.

I think Pietro Monte at the start of the 1500s did argue that in a 1v1 duel it would be better for a skilled fighter to leave some parts unarmored than to overly weighed down. So there might be some situations where it was preferred to reinforce only the front parts of the armor and leave the back of the legs or arms uncovered.

It does look to me like the photo you gave seems to be leaving far more of the arm exposed than most very late suits of plate armor did. However it's perhaps still not completely impractical. This period also saw the frequent use of jack chains by lightly armored troops, which would only protect from blows to the outside of the arm and not much else.

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
What about tournaments and hastiludes? Since combats at both were meant to be non-lethal at such events (well, as non-lethal as swinging swords or charging with blunted lances could ever be), would maille have been worn under plate harness? Going without maille would have made things lighter for participants.


There are mentions of special "tournament mail" which was distinguished from mail used for war, possibly because it was more for appearance than defense. Joinville mentions being armed in a tournament hauberk when he was too weak to wear regular arms. The late 13th century Tournament at Windsor used leather helms and cuirasses, but replaced mail on the arms with sleeves of painted buckram, but the "swords" were made of silver-gilt baleen. Some mail shows heavily reinforced breasts, which would seem to be ideal for the joust or other hastiludes.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Joinville mentions being armed in a tournament hauberk when he was too weak to wear regular arms.

Need to see original language for this one. My translation said he wore a gambeson because his mail was too burdensome.

Quote:
Some mail shows heavily reinforced breasts, which would seem to be ideal for the joust or other hastiludes.

Any chance of posting some pics of mail like this? I've read about them but never seen any extant examples.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Joinville mentions being armed in a tournament hauberk when he was too weak to wear regular arms.

Need to see original language for this one. My translation said he wore a gambeson because his mail was too burdensome.

Jean de Joinville, Vie de St. Louis, BNF Fr.13568, p.162, column a, lines 16-17, 1330-1340:
"...vestu un
hauber a tournoier;
"
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8447868p/f180.item

Dan Howard wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Some mail shows heavily reinforced breasts, which would seem to be ideal for the joust or other hastiludes.

"Any chance of posting some pics of mail like this? I've read about them but never seen any extant examples.

The Kremlin kolchuga 4469 has a 6:1 breast. Didn't you buy a piece of mail from one of our French members a few years ago which was made this way? I vaguely remember him buying a shirt made up of four large patches, one of which was a reinforced breast.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Joinville mentions being armed in a tournament hauberk when he was too weak to wear regular arms.

Need to see original language for this one. My translation said he wore a gambeson because his mail was too burdensome.

Jean de Joinville, Vie de St. Louis, BNF Fr.13568, p.162, column a, lines 16-17, 1330-1340:
"...vestu un
hauber a tournoier;
"
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8447868p/f180.item


Many thanks.

Quote:
The Kremlin kolchuga 4469 has a 6:1 breast. Didn't you buy a piece of mail from one of our French members a few years ago which was made this way? I vaguely remember him buying a shirt made up of four large patches, one of which was a reinforced breast.


I bought his piece of Turko-Persian 4-in 1. I can't find any pics of the Kremlin mail.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some b&w images of 4469 here:
https://muscovitearmor.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%87%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0-%E2%84%96-4469-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sun 04 Nov, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://io.ua/15983785
http://io.ua/15983788
http://io.ua/15983906

Leonard
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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Nov, 2018 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Battle of Orsha, painting from around 1530

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Krell_Battle_of_Orsha_%28detail%29_04.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Krell_Battle_of_Orsha_%28detail%29_18.jpg/800px-Krell_Battle_of_Orsha_%28detail%29_18.jpg

http://hussar.com.pl/orsza/index.php?option=c...tstart=40# (image number 6 here)|

No sign of any mail.

Though the Polish/Lithuanian armor in this picture is most certainly exegarated very much.

Huge amounts of incredibly elaborate man and horse Maximilian(ish) plate....
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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In some of the more complete armours you could do so at not risk to your self.
A Visit to the Armor Galleries, 23:45 you can see how the inner arm is covered with plate, a little later you see the back of the knees covered like wise.

Ok it's more a not beyond the whit of man then a common thing.
I don't have as good support for the next argument, but a lot of the later munitions armour lacked mail, not only had bullets have replaced blades as the main threat but mail was costly versus now much cheaper munitions armors like the Almain rivet.
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Ryan Hobbs




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PostPosted: Sat 10 Nov, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the use of jazeraint mail (cloth covered mail) be causing some the confusion? Tobias Capwell mentions it in his Armour of the English Knight. I haven't actually seen any, but perhaps this would cause illuaion that there is textile when there is indeed mail in the joints and elsewhere?
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:11
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M. Nordlund




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Nov, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bartek Strojek wrote:
Battle of Orsha, painting from around 1530

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Krell_Battle_of_Orsha_%28detail%29_04.jpg

[snip]

No sign of any mail.



We can actually see a single man wearing a mail collar or bishops mantle in the first picture to the right behind the wheels of the wagon with the cannon, it's the guy with red sleeves and hat There is also A hangonner in th same painting wearing a collar with a triagular back section:
http://hussar.com.pl/orsza/images/phocagaller...233656.jpg

Both of those have no visible plate armor though.

We do see mail and plate on some horses:
http://hussar.com.pl/orsza/images/phocagaller...233672.jpg

And one cavalary archer who might have a hauberk or skirt of mail under his coat and breastplate. Though I amight have mistaken a vest for a breastplate here.
http://hussar.com.pl/orsza/images/phocagaller...233670.jpg

I think there might be some more mail visible on other of the lighter cavalry but I do not have pictures good enough to judge.

And we do not really see much of the inside of the elbows and knees or the armpits of the heavy troop where one would expect to find mail it in this era and those parts when seen are sometimess just a flat metallic color rather tan individual plates that would be needed for aactual movement..
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