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Zach Gordon




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Outlaw King         Reply with quote

Has anyone else seen the new trailer for 'Outlaw King'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-G1BME8FKw

It looks more accurate than the normal run of horrible "medieval" films that have been coming out recently (Robin Hood, King Arthur, etc). It kinda looks like they tried a bit!
Thoughts?

Z
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 12:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's embarrassing how much better this NetFlix series looks that the latest iteration of Robin Hood. The fact that the makers of the series tried to get things write in terms of costuming and arms and armour is impressive. I especially like the sword that looks like Albion's Laird.

I don't know how good the series will be, nor how closely it will match the historical record, but at least it's a lot more respectful than most medieval movies these days.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I don't know how good the series will be, nor how closely it will match the historical record, but at least it's a lot more respectful than most medieval movies these days.


It's not a series. It is a movie. I believe the sword is a Albion Laird. However, that style of sword has been dated to the 15th c. not the 14th. It is Scottish though. The chap holding it appears to have put the point in the dirt. Not a very good idea.

Any way, the movie looks promising.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
It's not a series. It is a movie. I believe the sword is a Albion Laird. However, that style of sword has been dated to the 15th c. not the 14th. It is Scottish though


Why do you put it in the 15th? The type XII blade dates primarily from the late 12th to the 14th. Not sure about the guard, as it doesn't fit cleanly into any of the Oakeshott types, but the Scottish were always a bit unique, so that isn't surprising. Round pommels and peen blocks also easily date back to the 13th. I don't think I would deem a sword of this type ahistorical out-of-hand for a late 13th/early14th depiction. I do agree that stabbing the dirt, however, could be deemed abusive.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
Lin Robinson wrote:
It's not a series. It is a movie. I believe the sword is a Albion Laird. However, that style of sword has been dated to the 15th c. not the 14th. It is Scottish though


Why do you put it in the 15th? The type XII blade dates primarily from the late 12th to the 14th. Not sure about the guard, as it doesn't fit cleanly into any of the Oakeshott types, but the Scottish were always a bit unique, so that isn't surprising. Round pommels and peen blocks also easily date back to the 13th. I don't think I would deem a sword of this type ahistorical out-of-hand for a late 13th/early14th depiction. I do agree that stabbing the dirt, however, could be deemed abusive.


I don't. Jack Scott, in an article entitled Three Medieval Swords From Scotland, does. You can find the article in Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100 - 1800 edited by David Caldwell.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
I don't. Jack Scott, in an article entitled Three Medieval Swords From Scotland, does. You can find the article in Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100 - 1800 edited by David Caldwell.


Not a book I have and I cannot find a link to the article. I'd be interested to see the analysis of a weapon for which the primary elements are heavily used pre-15th, and a blade style that was very rare post-14th, that places the weapon in the 15th. I'm not saying it is an impossible task, but the arguments would need to be pretty tight. And I don't consider "I've never seen one exactly like it in a museum" a tight argument.
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well put Lin. Now I'll have to find my copy and reread it.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:


Not a book I have and I cannot find a link to the article. I'd be interested to see the analysis of a weapon for which the primary elements are heavily used pre-15th, and a blade style that was very rare post-14th, that places the weapon in the 15th. I'm not saying it is an impossible task, but the arguments would need to be pretty tight. And I don't consider "I've never seen one exactly like it in a museum" a tight argument.


I did not make that argument. In fact I did not argue anything about the sword, just reported that the article referenced dated similar original swords as 15th c. I am certainly no expert on those swords but I do have a copy of the book.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Victor. One thing that I think you should keep in mind is that Albion's next generation line are not exact replicas of historical examples. In this case Albion first designed their XII blades for the Knight. Later they used the same blade for the Laird and Caithness. So rather than being designed from scratch, the Laird and Caithness are just alternative hilts options.

There are a handful of surviving swords with hilts similar to Albion's Laird and as far as I can recall none of them have what I would consider a classic type XII blade. Many of these blades are quite similar to type XIIs in profile, but they have much shorter fullers. So you see these swords in fact don't have blades typical of the 13th and 14th centuries.

All that said I think that it's at least plausible that a sword similar to Albion's Laird could have been seen in early 14th century Scotland.

Éirinn go Brách
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: B         Reply with quote

Looking at the trailer I don't think that it is a Laird. The hilt is close if not identical, but the blade appears to be double fullered.
Éirinn go Brách
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
Victor R. wrote:


Not a book I have and I cannot find a link to the article. I'd be interested to see the analysis of a weapon for which the primary elements are heavily used pre-15th, and a blade style that was very rare post-14th, that places the weapon in the 15th. I'm not saying it is an impossible task, but the arguments would need to be pretty tight. And I don't consider "I've never seen one exactly like it in a museum" a tight argument.


I did not make that argument. In fact I did not argue anything about the sword, just reported that the article referenced dated similar original swords as 15th c. I am certainly no expert on those swords but I do have a copy of the book.


I didn't claim you did - I was just curious as to the manner in which the article would come to the conclusion and was hoping some of that would be shared - I'd really like to know. However, I've seen arguments often that say "it can't be this, because I've never seen exactly this precise thing in the small sample to which I have access". Alternatively, I'd love to see a reference to anything by Peter Johnsson, discussing his influence, that refers to a sword, or, likely, a group of swords, upon which he drew inspiration when he designed it. Honestly seeking informed analysis - and giving an example of what I don't consider truly "informed".
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Joe Maccarrone




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:

All that said I think that it's at least plausible that a sword similar to Albion's Laird could have been seen in early 14th century Scotland.


I'd swear I've seen 14th c. Scottish effigies with this style of hilt.. Would have to dig through my books, though. This distraction might prove more enticing than the house chores I'm supposed to be doing this afternoon.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor...

The article is over eight pages and detailed. IOW trying to summarize it will be difficult, especially for someone like me who is a generalist and certainly not knowledgeable on sword typology. Perhaps one of the other members can do that or even provide you with a copy of the article, which will hopefully answer your questions.

This book has been around since 1981 and in and out of print. Amazon has used hardback copies for sale but the cheapest is about $270 and the price skyrockets for the rest to a ridiculous level.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:

All that said I think that it's at least plausible that a sword similar to Albion's Laird could have been seen in early 14th century Scotland.


I'd swear I've seen 14th c. Scottish effigies with this style of hilt.. Would have to dig through my books, though. This distraction might prove more enticing than the house chores I'm supposed to be doing this afternoon.


As far as I know the earliest effigy that depicts a hilt like Albion's Laird is of Sir Gilbert de Greenlaw and dates to 1411. If I'm not mistaken all of the 14th effigies depict hilts with lobbed pommels, thus making them more similar to Albion's Caithness rather than the Laird. Also I don't think that any of these effigies dates to early enough in the 14th century to be relevant to events of the first war of independence.

Éirinn go Brách
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Joe Maccarrone wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:

All that said I think that it's at least plausible that a sword similar to Albion's Laird could have been seen in early 14th century Scotland.


I'd swear I've seen 14th c. Scottish effigies with this style of hilt.. Would have to dig through my books, though. This distraction might prove more enticing than the house chores I'm supposed to be doing this afternoon.


As far as I know the earliest effigy that depicts a hilt like Albion's Laird is of Sir Gilbert de Greenlaw and dates to 1411. If I'm not mistaken all of the 14th effigies depict hilts with lobbed pommels, thus making them more similar to Albion's Caithness rather than the Laird. Also I don't think that any of these effigies dates to early enough in the 14th century to be relevant to events of the first war of independence.


That is one of the two effigies cited in the book, the other being that of Bricious MacKinnon which dates from the late 14th c.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funny, the bearded and clear blue eyed Chris Pine reminded me of O Toole for a second (Lion in Winter).
It looks interesting, and I did not see anything making me cringe from the historical accuracy standpoint in the trailer.
Looking forward to it. Wonder what they are going to do with W Wallace who pretty much stole the part of Scotland's liberator in Braveheart leaving little for the posterity of R De Bruce (weak, treacherous political animal vs the manly, true to his word Wallace). Hope this will set the record straight!
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Alan E




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Funny, the bearded and clear blue eyed Chris Pine reminded me of O Toole for a second (Lion in Winter).
It looks interesting, and I did not see anything making me cringe from the historical accuracy standpoint in the trailer.
Looking forward to it. Wonder what they are going to do with W Wallace who pretty much stole the part of Scotland's liberator in Braveheart leaving little for the posterity of R De Bruce (weak, treacherous political animal vs the manly, true to his word Wallace). Hope this will set the record straight!
Nothing that made you cringe? Not the thrown axe biting through mail, nor the massed fire-arrows nor the mail hoods worn down during battle? Wink I guess it's a measure of how bad the representation is in most films, that these are not cringe-worthy Big Grin .
Member of Exiles Medieval Martial Arts.
Currently teaching Fiore's art in Ceredigion
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Michael P. Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote



The Bricious McKinnon carving (I think).

Gear certainly suggests 14th c. The hilt is quite worn, but at the least closely resembles the sword in the film. Might be a lobbed pommel, though. <shrug>

I wonder if they'll depict Robert and his buddies murdering John Comyn, or if they'll go for just a straight-forward heroic Bruce? Looks miles better than Braveheart at least.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cousin Bricious lived in the late 14th c. Of course the sword, especially since it is an image of a sword, could have been from much earlier times. There are many possibilities.
Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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William P




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

is it bad that i wanna nitpick the fact that the coat of plates is i think more 1340's? if im not mistaken really early coats of plates are more like the armoured surcoat

also the english spaulders are a bit BIG, and more seemingly reminiscent of mid century stuff?
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