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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hate this movie! Grrr!! Why did they have to do this? Why? http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2070&step=4

Look what they did with the sword of Saladin! They gave it a forked point. I'm so angry. The one chance to get a non-custom non-antique Islamic sword and they ruined it!

The sword of Saladin they've created looks a ton like two of the Topkapi museum swords including one of the "sacred swords." Of course, the fact that it is historically accurate (or mostly) only makes me angrier. Why? Because the Topkapi museum specifically states that these swords with the forked points were never designed for combat. They're medieval Islamic versions of wallhangers. Yeah, I know, people will think they look cool. However, the forked point is NOT functional. Grr...

On the plus side, they did an excellent job with the maces. The Saracen lion's head mace is an exact copy of one from "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era." The sketch with the Iranian Ghulam always shows him holding it. Even in the osprey version of the same picture. The other mace is also a very accurate copy of the real thing. I think it might be a bit earlier than the crusades but I could be wrong on that, I'd have to look it up.

So yeah, I was so excited to see a movie that came so close to doing a decent job on the swords and scabbards. Sure, the Euro swords have a fantasy twist to them, but they aren't ridiculous. I was going to buy the sword of Saladin if it was halfway decent because nobody sells Islamic swords. And of course, it was straight bladed which made me even more excited. And it had multiple fullers and a cartouche. And then I scrolled down and saw the forked point. *sigh* Cry
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was intrigued by Saladin's sword too until I saw that feature. At least they went with a straight bladed weapon which I believe is more accurate of the Saracen weapons of the period. I have to admit, however, that the european weapons of the period are more my field of study.

I wouldn't classify the scabbards as fantasy. A bit anachronistic and over built, but the overall pattern is generally sound. In terms of the extra buckles it looks to me like someone just thought "Let's add some stuff here for an added cool factor".

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
I was intrigued by Saladin's sword too until I saw that feature. At least they went with a straight bladed weapon which I believe is more accurate of the Saracen weapons of the period. I have to admit, however, that the european weapons of the period are more my field of study.

I wouldn't classify the scabbards as fantasy. A bit anachronistic and over built, but the overall pattern is generally sound. In terms of the extra buckles it looks to me like someone just thought "Let's add some stuff here for an added cool factor".


Yeah, and like I said, there are period islamic swords with forked blades. But there are only 2 of them and they aren't meant for use as fighting weapons. How in the world did the makers of the movie find out about 2 very rare swords with that feature, and then, of all the Islamic swords they could have copied, chosen to copy those ones? It's mind boggling.
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 10:08 am    Post subject: What a spoiled lot we are         Reply with quote

Alina Boyden wrote:
I hate this movie! Grrr!! Why did they have to do this? Why? http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2070&step=4

Look what they did with the sword of Saladin! They gave it a forked point. I'm so angry. The one chance to get a non-custom non-antique Islamic sword and they ruined it!

The sword of Saladin they've created looks a ton like two of the Topkapi museum swords including one of the "sacred swords." Of course, the fact that it is historically accurate (or mostly) only makes me angrier. Why? Because the Topkapi museum specifically states that these swords with the forked points were never designed for combat. They're medieval Islamic versions of wallhangers. Yeah, I know, people will think they look cool. However, the forked point is NOT functional. Grr...

On the plus side, they did an excellent job with the maces. The Saracen lion's head mace is an exact copy of one from "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era." The sketch with the Iranian Ghulam always shows him holding it. Even in the osprey version of the same picture. The other mace is also a very accurate copy of the real thing. I think it might be a bit earlier than the crusades but I could be wrong on that, I'd have to look it up.

So yeah, I was so excited to see a movie that came so close to doing a decent job on the swords and scabbards. Sure, the Euro swords have a fantasy twist to them, but they aren't ridiculous. I was going to buy the sword of Saladin if it was halfway decent because nobody sells Islamic swords. And of course, it was straight bladed which made me even more excited. And it had multiple fullers and a cartouche. And then I scrolled down and saw the forked point. *sigh* Cry


We are a spoiled lot arent we LOL. Alina don't be too dejected, it seems there is a thing among Hollywood "armorers" in that they have to get at least one thing wrong. But then again I don't think anything will please us totally. I think this goes to the way movies are made. The armorer doesn 't have the final ( sometimes any) say in the design of the costumes and weapons. So the person doing the weapons has a deep knowledge of the period and sometimes not so deep. Apparently the weapons person looked up a period Islamic sword but didn't see the example they chose was not meant for combat. So here we are again moaning and groaning as we ususaly do about certain aspects of a historically based movie. We all look for the day when someone in a movie gets it totally right, but we may be waiting a long time !

Joel
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess imatation is flattery.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Bruce Wilson




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Movies will always be about entertainment not education or specialist pedantry. To that end, the "hey, that looks cool" factor will always win over historical accuracy - the producers and directors know that the VAST majority of their audience will know next to nothing about the time-period/subject of their movie, so they'll just go with what looks good on-screen.

In a similar vein, we've known for years that a firearm being discharged sounds nothing like the foley effects that Hollywood adds in post-production but it has become universally accepted by the viewing public that guns on film sound a certain way - so that's now how they all have to sound. We're just seeing a similar thing here. At least this movie seems to have made SOME effort with the period costumes, arms and armour. I'll be going to see it - I'll just bear in mind before I go in that it IS just a movie and I'm there to be entertained, not to pick holes!

You should try talking to a serious scholar of Classical Greece about Alexander - now there's a whole can of worms I should never have opened... (!).

Laughing Out Loud
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Gabriel Stevens




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe we can take heart that Saladin might not even draw his sword in the movie? I can't imagine why he would really. The funny thing is that Edward III and Phillip VI kept making plans to go on a Crusade and then cancelling those plans as negotiations between the two would break down. This was leading up to the crecy campaign. Mostly it seems that the idea of another crusade, something the Pope ardently desired, was used as a political ploy but there seems to be a few times when the idea was a geniuine desire on the part of both kings.
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina wrote:
Quote:
Of course, the fact that it is historically accurate (or mostly) only makes me angrier. Why? Because the Topkapi museum specifically states that these swords with the forked points were never designed for combat.


Hi Alina,

Archaeologists have, on occasion, wrongly assumed ceremonial status for weapons (and shields) that they thought were not viable. It's possible that this is the case here. Probably not, but possibly Happy . You could always buy it, destroy it, and put the remains of the blade (conveniently excluding the tip) on your wall as "spoils of war".

Or not. Happy

David
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David McElrea wrote:
Alina wrote:
Quote:
Of course, the fact that it is historically accurate (or mostly) only makes me angrier. Why? Because the Topkapi museum specifically states that these swords with the forked points were never designed for combat.


Hi Alina,

Archaeologists have, on occasion, wrongly assumed ceremonial status for weapons (and shields) that they thought were not viable. It's possible that this is the case here. Probably not, but possibly Happy . You could always buy it, destroy it, and put the remains of the blade (conveniently excluding the tip) on your wall as "spoils of war".

Or not. Happy

David


That's true. However, the sacred sword example isn't merely forked at the point, it has holes near the tip as well. I'll show you a picture of it. It is from the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. The photos are from the book "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Unsal Yucel. The sword is attributed to Khalifa (Caliph) 'Uthman ibn 'Affan, the third rashidun Caliph. As you can see, the blade looks strikingly similar to the design used for Saladin's sword in the movie. In fact, the crossguard and hilt shape even appear remarkably similar. The position of the cartouche and fullers on the movie sword also seem to mimic the features of this weapon. Even the scabbard looks similar.

Now, there is a second example of a cloven sword in the topkapi museum according to this book. This other sword is not decorative. However, the "fork" in the tip is much smaller. I don't know what this means. I still think the choice of an incredibly rare type of sword which is probably decorative in nature was a mistake.

I'm posting only the antique because Reliks.com doesn't let me save any of their pics. I think comparing the two is a good idea however, so here's the link again: http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2070&step=4 I find them to be very similar. Another option, if I don't like the fork in the blade, is to simply grind it off. Islamic swords of the period are famous for triangular shaped tips. It would be a relatively simple process. Also, the sword, at 41 inches, is a bit longer than most Islamic weapons of the period. So it might be a nice thing to try out.



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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce

The "recent film loosely depicting ancient Greece which shall remain nameless" has its own thread somewhere here in the off-topic forum if you're interested in the opinion of the collective. I have far more confidence in the man who brought us "Gladiator" to put out (although probably not absolutely historically accurate) an enjoyable movie than the minds behind the travesty of an artistic statement gone trainwreck that was the aforementioned film.

. . . I still want six hours of my life back. . . and I paid to see it. . . twice.
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Continuing on with the Islamic weapons, I really do love these maces. I'm not sure I trust windlass quality, as I've had the haft of one of my warhammers break in half suddenly. However, I'm very tempted to buy these all the same.

Lion head mace: http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2087&step=4
War Mace: http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2086&step=4

For comparison, I'm providing a picture from an osprey manual of a man carrying the zoomorphic mace, along with Dr. David Nicolle's sketch of the mace head the drawing is based upon. In addition, I'm providing a sketch from Dr. David Nicolle of a bronze mace head from Nishapur, Iran from the 11th-12th centuries. It looks like a dead ringer for the "war mace."

The Lion's head mace is described by Dr. Nicolle as a Zoomorphic mace head of the gurz type. He says it is over 15cm high and went out of fashion in the 14th century. This mace head is likely 12th or 13th century. Therefore it fits the sack of Jerusalem nicely.

I am also providing a link to Manning Imperial and their infinitely superior copy of the Nishapur mace. For 300 Australian dollars, I would much rather buy the Manning Imperial item. http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=253

Manning Imperial has also created a warhammer which is identical to the "saracen warhammer" used in the movie. That hammer is also from an extant original but I don't have any drawings of it. Manning's warhammer is only 80 australian dollars and once again, the quality seems to be higher. http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=257

Interestingly, the style of axe they give as the Saracen axe was only used as a single handed weapon as far as I know. However, the two handed axe they call the "Crusader axe" is actually an Islamic style two handed axe.

I'm pleasantly surprised at the authenticity put into the weapons in this movie. The swords, as usual, really don't fit the time period very well. The other weapons on the other hand, seem to be reasonably well researched. All the same, there isn't anything in this line that can't be had elsewhere by more reputable dealers than Windless often for less money. Honestly though, I think this mostly has to do with the cost of licensing and such. The Kingdom of Heaven label probably costs a bundle.

Edit: Oops, I lied. I do have a sketch of the original bronze warhammer head that was used in the movie. I don't feel the need to post it though. It is Iranian, 11th or 12th century, bronze, and looks just exactly like the Manning Imperial model and pretty close to the WIndlass version.


Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bruce Wilson




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathon Janusz wrote:
Bruce

The "recent film loosely depicting ancient Greece which shall remain nameless" has its own thread somewhere here in the off-topic forum if you're interested in the opinion of the collective. I have far more confidence in the man who brought us "Gladiator" to put out (although probably not absolutely historically accurate) an enjoyable movie than the minds behind the travesty of an artistic statement gone trainwreck that was the aforementioned film.


Thanks, Jonathon but I may give it a miss... Laughing Out Loud

A very dear friend of mine did her MA in Classics and Mediaeval History - we kinda decided that the only reason for going to see either Troy or Alexander would be to enjoy sitting there and ripping them to bits...

Quote:
. . . I still want six hours of my life back. . . and I paid to see it. . . twice.


Oh, I hear ya...!! (twice?! WTF?! ) Kingdom of Heaven looks to be a little more enjoyable but the Crusades are also one of her big areas of knowledge so I wait with bated breath to hear the response to THIS particular movie date (!). It'll make for a fun discussion in a bar afterwards though! Razz Wink
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Wilson wrote:
You should try talking to a serious scholar of Classical Greece about Alexander - now there's a whole can of worms I should never have opened... (!).


Please don't mention the A-word. I'm still going through a twelve step program to get over that abomination.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 7:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathon Janusz wrote:
Bruce

The "recent film loosely depicting ancient Greece which shall remain nameless" has its own thread somewhere here in the off-topic forum if you're interested in the opinion of the collective. I have far more confidence in the man who brought us "Gladiator" to put out (although probably not absolutely historically accurate) an enjoyable movie than the minds behind the travesty of an artistic statement gone trainwreck that was the aforementioned film.

. . . I still want six hours of my life back. . . and I paid to see it. . . twice.


I agree. Gladiator and Troy both had their issues but at least they were entertaining IMHO, in an old fashioned Hollywood spectacle fashion.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Please don't mention the A-word. I'm still going through a twelve step program to get over that abomination.

I am sooooo proud of myself. My whole family went to see A________, and, though I was tempted, I stayed home. Instead, I obtained a copy of Michael Wood's documentary, "In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great". Don't know how correct it is, but I really enjoyed it.
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Bruce Wilson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Wood's "In search of..." stuff is great! A fantastic popular historian and presenter. He's a well qualified academic historian as well as being the man in front of the camera - and writes the series himself IIRC.

I remember him first appearing on BBC TV twenty years ago when he was young and almost Indiana Jones like (or so the girls in my class thought anyway...!). I always enjoyed his series!

He's done SO many since then:
In Search of Myths and Heroes
In Search of the Trojan War
In Search of the Dark Ages
In Search of King Arthur
In Search of England
In Search of Shakespeare
In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great: A Journey from Greece to Asia
...to name but a FEW!! Big Grin

Definitely a much more useful and entertaining use of your time!
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Wilson wrote:
To drag this back to the weapons themselves, has anyone had a chance to look at the images of the weapons (and costume replicas) that are now available? Reliks.com have their usual high quality pictures up, giving us a chance to get a good look at some of these items.

Does the King of Jerusalem sword look just a little bit familiar to anyone here?!
I don't recall Edward III ever going crusading...

Wink


Glad to see that I was not the only one that saw that Happy I find it mostly amusing than annoying Happy



looks familiar, does it not?

Alexi
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Bruce Wilson




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:

I find it mostly amusing than annoying Happy
looks familiar, does it not?
Alexi


Yes, I thought so! I agree - it's amusing rather than annoying. In some ways I actually quite like the idea of what they've done in taking an existing historical regal sword and using that as the basis for what still looks very much like a Kings's sword. The use of the Jerusalem cross in the pommel is a nice detail.

I'm guessing the style of the Edward III design is a little late in terms of time period for the Fall of Jerusalem - but then, as I noted above I accept that it's just a movie and, frankly, things could have been MUCH worse with regard to the arms and armour used in the production. It's certainly not something I intend to get worked up about! Big Grin
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina Boyden wrote:
...Another option, if I don't like the fork in the blade, is to simply grind it off. Islamic swords of the period are famous for triangular shaped tips. It would be a relatively simple process. Also, the sword, at 41 inches, is a bit longer than most Islamic weapons of the period. So it might be a nice thing to try out.

Grinding off the tip sounds like a good idea to me. What do you suppose they used for the grip material? The Reliks.com description doesn't say, so I have to wonder if it is simply (shudder) plastic?
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
Alina Boyden wrote:
...Another option, if I don't like the fork in the blade, is to simply grind it off. Islamic swords of the period are famous for triangular shaped tips. It would be a relatively simple process. Also, the sword, at 41 inches, is a bit longer than most Islamic weapons of the period. So it might be a nice thing to try out.

Grinding off the tip sounds like a good idea to me. What do you suppose they used for the grip material? The Reliks.com description doesn't say, so I have to wonder if it is simply (shudder) plastic?


Well, if you could do rivets yourself then here is what I would advise:

Grind off the tip, and make it a roughly triangular shape. This would be period for an Islamic sword.

If the grip scales are plastic, then I would recommend removing them and getting some buffalo horn or something to use as new grip scales.

This would make the sword from a fantasy-esque monstrosity into a reasonably accurate replica of an Islamic weapon from the 12th century. The main difficulty is, of course, the price. For 300 dollars I would much rather save up a bit more cash and then get a custom smith to make one. I'm sure you could get an Odinblades Islamic sword for cheaper than the cost of buying the windlass version and redoing it. One of these days I'll bite the bullet and get a Vince Evans Islamic sword...one of these days.
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