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Gerardo Garcia





Joined: 25 Nov 2017

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Help identifying a gun: 1835 Amberg         Reply with quote

Hi y'all. This is my first post, I came across this website when I was trying to identify this gun on my own, by I had no such luck. I've attached a couple of pictures, but this is an old rifle with "1835 Amberg" written on it. Any idea what this is?


https://imgur.com/a/of7Wm
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm no expert on antique firearms (or modern, for that matter), but judging by those adjustable sights, I would say that is the 1835 equivalent of a sniper rifle....or a really cool big-game gun. And probably high-dollar in it's day....and even more so nowadays. Wink .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was an arsenal in Amberg, Germany in the 19th and 20th centuries and probably earlier. The rifle appears to me to be a Jaeger style rifle which may have been produced in Amberg. It is also possible that it is made from parts from an older Amberg-made firearm. It is difficult to tell from the limited views supplied.

Jaeger rifles were carried by German troops in the American Revolution and later. They usually had full stocks rather than half stocks like this one, octagonal barrels, set triggers and fancy trigger guards. The barrels were generally short, less than 30 inches and there was a patch box on the right side of the butt stock. Of course, while these guns were produced based on a pattern, they were handmade so there are some variations in dimensions and construction. Early Jaegers were, of course, flintlocks and this is a percussion gun. My suspicion is that parts were used to assemble the gun for sporting purposes, i.e. it was never a military rifle. I also think the lock was originally flint and converted to percussion.

That is about all I can say about it, absent more detailed photos.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Dave Black




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't add much to whats already been said. The ladder sights suggest that its almost certainly a rifle rather than a smoothbore. From the cheek rest on the stock I'd guess that its either a high end sporting rifle or a target rifle. If its relatively small calibre then I'd guess at a target rifle.

Generally there isn't much you can say about these types of muzzle loading percussion cap firearms as there isn't a lot to differentiate them. They were produced for a long period of time, pretty much until the late 19th/early 20th century and ended up all around the world. The one in your photo's just seems to be an upmarket specimen.
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Gerardo Garcia





Joined: 25 Nov 2017

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, thank you so much everyone for the high quality responses. So far, you've given me a lot of information. I had no idea about this gun's history; unfortunately, the person I received it from passed away, so I can't ask them anything.

I've attached all the pictures that I have of the gun here:

https://imgur.com/a/nx7ON


Thank you so much, I have a few more that I'll be posting in the coming weeks that are other antique firearms that would be interesting to know the history about.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The additional photos seem to support my theory. I think it was originally equipped with a flintlock from a military rifle converted to percussion although the date on the lock plate is within the percussion era, so who can be sure about that.

Please do post your photos of other antique guns. I like blades but guns are also very interesting.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982


Last edited by Lin Robinson on Mon 04 Dec, 2017 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a target airgun guy rather than a target firearms guy, so that's my bias. My first impression is of a purpose-built sporting target "Schützen" rifle. The quality of the stock, set trigger, trigger guard and rear sight just seem designed for precision shooting. However, three things I don't see that would seal the deal for me are an aperture sight on the wrist or tang, some kind of decoration and a more concave butt plate. That suggests to me that it's a good, plain hunting rifle.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Scott Moore




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gerardo,are there provisions for a ramrod?It's hard to determine from the photos whether there are rod pipes attached to the bottom of the barrel,or if there is a hole drilled in the forearm of the stock to accept a ramrod.
If none of these are present my bet would be for a target rifle- a muzzle loader without an attached ramrod would be pretty impractical for hunting, as I can attest from practical experience.
If a ramrod is provided for,and the gun not excessively heavy,(say above12 or so pounds),I'd say you have a hunting rifle which is/was ,depending on condition, accurate enough for entertaining target work.

Scott

Grip Fast.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Moore wrote:
Gerardo,are there provisions for a ramrod?It's hard to determine from the photos whether there are rod pipes attached to the bottom of the barrel,or if there is a hole drilled in the forearm of the stock to accept a ramrod.
If none of these are present my bet would be for a target rifle- a muzzle loader without an attached ramrod would be pretty impractical for hunting, as I can attest from practical experience.
If a ramrod is provided for,and the gun not excessively heavy,(say above12 or so pounds),I'd say you have a hunting rifle which is/was ,depending on condition, accurate enough for entertaining target work.

Scott


Does not seem to be a provision for a ramrod. There is a pretty good view of the underside of the barrel in the second set of photos and no thimbles are visible. The Schnabel on the front of the fore end does not appear to have a hole for a rod. I think the rear sight is much later than the rifle itself.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Gerardo Garcia





Joined: 25 Nov 2017

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
Scott Moore wrote:
Gerardo,are there provisions for a ramrod?It's hard to determine from the photos whether there are rod pipes attached to the bottom of the barrel,or if there is a hole drilled in the forearm of the stock to accept a ramrod.
If none of these are present my bet would be for a target rifle- a muzzle loader without an attached ramrod would be pretty impractical for hunting, as I can attest from practical experience.
If a ramrod is provided for,and the gun not excessively heavy,(say above12 or so pounds),I'd say you have a hunting rifle which is/was ,depending on condition, accurate enough for entertaining target work.

Scott


Does not seem to be a provision for a ramrod. There is a pretty good view of the underside of the barrel in the second set of photos and no thimbles are visible. The Schnabel on the front of the fore end does not appear to have a hole for a rod. I think the rear sight is much later than the rifle itself.



I find all this information fascinating. I honestly don't know anymore than y'all do from the pictures. I inherited this and other rifles recently, and I'll be getting possession of them in a few weeks. I've seen and held these in person, but it's been several years, so all I know is what I see from the pictures. And you guys really are the experts here- I know a little bit about 20th century guns (it's what I grew up shooting), but these early 19th century ones all I know about them are pretty much from basic knowledge in history classes.

So, something I've learned so far, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that this was:

1. Most likely a precision rifle for hunting or marksmanship

2. A rifle, not a smoothbore

3. Manufactured in Germany

So, then there was not any obvious manufacturer; is that an indication of the times, that it was a lot less mass-produced than what we see these days with all the standardization in firearms models? More of a on a workshop or small "factory" basis than what we see today, or was production in 1835 already highly industrialized in this part of present-day Germany?

As a history buff, all this stuff is really cool, but some of the terminology is a bit over my head. I'm trying though!
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Ralph Grinly





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure about the firearms industry in the German states at this time; ( If I recall correctly..Germany, as a nation, didn't exist at this time..it was just a loose confederation of various small dutchies and states ) but I'd have expected a relatively high-end rifle like this to have proof marks on the barrel somewhere ? If you can find them, and post a good, clear picture..it might help folks to narrow down it's origon ? Are you sure that's a 56 on top of the barrel..it's roughly around the area one would normally expect to find proof marks ?
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In 1835 Amberg was a part of the Kingdom of Bavaria and home to the "Königlich Bayerische Gewehrfabrik" that is the Royal Bavarian Rifle Factory if the names is translated directly into English. Set up in 1801 the factory would become one of the major sources of arms for the Bavarian army which according to Wikipedia took over management of the factory in 1820.

The Bavarian army used two diffrent models of "Jägerstutzen" (Jäger Rifles) in the first half of 19th Century, the M/1807 and the M/1829 both of which were converted from flintlock to precussion lock from 1841 onward resulting in the Jägerstutzen M/1807/41 & M/1829/41

My best guess is that the rifle in the photos is either a jägerstuzen that had a lot of extra work done on it to convert it after the Bavarian army got rid of the rifle due to it being obsolete. Or it is a "Frankenstein" rifle built at a later date using unrelated bits and pieces which just happen to include a Amberg precussion lock or at least the plate from such a lock.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:
In 1835 Amberg was a part of the Kingdom of Bavaria and home to the "Königlich Bayerische Gewehrfabrik" that is the Royal Bavarian Rifle Factory if the names is translated directly into English. Set up in 1801 the factory would become one of the major sources of arms for the Bavarian army which according to Wikipedia took over management of the factory in 1820.

The Bavarian army used two diffrent models of "Jägerstutzen" (Jäger Rifles) in the first half of 19th Century, the M/1807 and the M/1829 both of which were converted from flintlock to precussion lock from 1841 onward resulting in the Jägerstutzen M/1807/41 & M/1829/41

My best guess is that the rifle in the photos is either a jägerstuzen that had a lot of extra work done on it to convert it after the Bavarian army got rid of the rifle due to it being obsolete. Or it is a "Frankenstein" rifle built at a later date using unrelated bits and pieces which just happen to include a Amberg precussion lock or at least the plate from such a lock.


Thank you Daniel. That is what I thought too. Beginning the conversion from flintlock to percussion in 1841 explains the date on the lock plate, which appears to have been altered from flintlock. I suspect that the bolster in which the nipple is housed was welded onto the barrel, a common method of converting flintlock barrels to percussion. I think the most likely scenario is a "parts rifle" for sporting purposes.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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