myArmoury.com - Diamond patterned garments. Gambesons?

Posts: 76 Location: Finland

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:00 am

Dan Howard wrote:

The name "aketon" implies that the earliest ones in Europe were made from cotton. Cotton was brought to Sicily by the Moors but it never spread to the rest of Europe until the Norman conquest of Sicily in the 12th century. So there couldn't have been any in Europe before this time.

I dont have acces to the original text of the assize of arms, but the translation to english was gambeson. The sources for the PHD thesis were late 13th and early 14th century.

Profile PM

Dan Howard

Quote

Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:08 am

[3]III. Item omnes burgenses et tota communa liberorum hominum habeant wambais, et capellet ferri et lanceam.

The word "wambais" originally referred to regular clothing. There is no way to know when it started to refer to armour.

Profile PM

Dan Howard

Quote

Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:22 am

Joonas Pessi wrote:

The lowest price of aketon mentioned in the thesis is 12 pence, and the yearly wage of a kitchen servant in the 14th century would have been 2-4 shillings (1 shilling=12 pence), so about half of the lowest yearly wage for a kitchen servant. Not cheap i know, but not as expensive as you suppose. http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

So all you have to do is find a regulation requiring people in this socio-economic group to have gambesons.

Profile PM

Joonas Pessi

Quote

Posts: 76 Location: Finland

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:28 am

Dan Howard wrote:

[3]III. Item omnes burgenses et tota communa liberorum hominum habeant wambais, et capellet ferri et lanceam.

The word "wambais" originally referred to regular clothing. There is no way to know when it started to refer to armour.

Yes but it is reasonable to assume that the word would refer to armour in that context, as the text concerns military equipment, and they would have alread worn regular clothing so there would be no sense requiring it, especially in a document that concerns arms and armour.

Profile PM

Dan Howard

Quote

Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:32 am

Joonas Pessi wrote:

Dan Howard wrote:

[3]III. Item omnes burgenses et tota communa liberorum hominum habeant wambais, et capellet ferri et lanceam.

The word "wambais" originally referred to regular clothing. There is no way to know when it started to refer to armour.

Yes but it is reasonable to assume that the word would refer to armour in that context, as the text concerns military equipment, and they would have alread worn regular clothing so there would be no sense requiring it, especially in a document that concerns arms and armour.

Of course. We have been saying this for years. The trick is to find an earlier reference.

Profile PM

Joonas Pessi

Quote

Posts: 76 Location: Finland

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 2:39 am

Dan Howard wrote:

Joonas Pessi wrote:

The lowest price of aketon mentioned in the thesis is 12 pence, and the yearly wage of a kitchen servant in the 14th century would have been 2-4 shillings (1 shilling=12 pence), so about half of the lowest yearly wage for a kitchen servant. Not cheap i know, but not as expensive as you suppose. http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

So all you have to do is find a regulation requiring people in this socio-economic group to have gambesons.

You are missing my point. I was not claiming they were required to own a gambeson, but that they could afford one. This was to illustrate that gambesons were not as expensive as you claimed earlier.

Profile PM

Mart Shearer

Quote

Posts: 1,302 Location: Jackson, MS, USA

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 4:44 am

Dan Howard wrote:

Joonas Pessi wrote:

Dan Howard wrote:

[3]III. Item omnes burgenses et tota communa liberorum hominum habeant wambais, et capellet ferri et lanceam.

The word "wambais" originally referred to regular clothing. There is no way to know when it started to refer to armour.

Yes but it is reasonable to assume that the word would refer to armour in that context, as the text concerns military equipment, and they would have alread worn regular clothing so there would be no sense requiring it, especially in a document that concerns arms and armour.

Of course. We have been saying this for years. The trick is to find an earlier reference.

Aliscans, L. LXIII, with dating assigned from various sources to 1170-1190, mentions both aketon (auketon) and gambeson (gambison) being used in conjunction with mail. Unfortunately it's not clear if one is above and one beneath, or if the poet is merely using alternate words as a poetic device.
Derriere trosse son hauberc fremillion,
Mais n'a entor forrel ne gambison.
Blance est la maille assés plus d'auketon
Et s'en y a de rouge com carbon.

Profile PM

Stephen Curtin

Quote

Posts: 1,220 Location: Cork, Ireland

Thu 30 Nov, 2017 5:00 am

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the lowest prices given in Storey's thesis were probably for second hand and possibly damaged items. 12d probably isn't what most people paid for their aketons or bascinets.

Think of like cars in the modern age. You can by a second hand but functional car for a couple hundred Euro/Pounds/Dollars, but most people pay much more than this.

Profile PM E-mail