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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2005 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Made a new test lately for the sword vs 4mm thick leather wrapped pork arm to see how this sword would fare in slightly armored combat situation (the leather was not hardened).



Full report and the misellaneous damages can be found below:
http://www.rsw.com.hk/brescia-review.htm#damage

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting results as always Lance.

I feel obliged to point out one thing though. Original medieval swords were made with fittings of iron, and sometimes bronze. They weren't made with hardened steel fittings, yet many of them survived treatment much more severe than this. I don't think you have to worry about the durability of your sword, just quit dropping the thing! Big Grin

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Anton de Vries





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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Light damage isn't damage, it's character.
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Made a new test lately for the sword vs 4mm thick leather wrapped pork arm to see how this sword would fare in slightly armored combat situation (the leather was not hardened).
Full report and the misellaneous damages can be found below:
http://www.rsw.com.hk/brescia-review.htm#damage

It seems to me that the sword has held up very well against this testing regimen.
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did dropping the sword cause any harm to the floor? If not, I'm a bit surprised at how soft the metal seems. I once accidentally dropped a WWII Austrian bayonet on a concrete floor, pommel first, and it made a noticeable dent in the floor without being as much as scratched...
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr, 2005 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Did dropping the sword cause any harm to the floor? If not, I'm a bit surprised at how soft the metal seems. I once accidentally dropped a WWII Austrian bayonet on a concrete floor, pommel first, and it made a noticeable dent in the floor without being as much as scratched...


No harm done to the floor on both accidental drops. No dent, no scratch, no broken tiles.

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Lance,

I am very happy to see that you use your sword thoroughly. That is what it is made for.
Happy
First let me add that I am not using my own computer as I write this. I have been without proper internet access for one and a half month now and cannot download large files, so I have not seen your report of the damage caused by dropping it on the floor. I am happy to hear that Albion has helped you with this predicament.
Let me still make a comment:
Marks from wear:
The hilt components are made from mild steel. That is the same as iron. Iron is resilient and tough but somewhat soft when compared to hardened steel (as in the blade or even the unhardened steel of the pommel of a WW2 bayonette). Iron (comparable to mild steel) would have been the norma material used in hilt furniture of original swords in the medieval times. Dropping an original on a tile floor could well cause some denting of exposed details. Note that this damage does in no way disqualify the function of the sword, but adds to the "Character" if you will. This is exactly the kind of wear you see on originals that have been in use: guards that have been bent and straightened, pommels that have been gauged or scratched. It is to be expected when you use a tool that it will be marked from use. Edges will be worn and resharpened many times, hilts will be scratched and repolished, guards bent and straightened. The important thing is that the integrity of the sword is not compromized: it should still be able to preform even if it will carry the marks of dedicated use after some years.
As the sword is made from a non-staniless material, the blade will darken if it is used cutting mildly acidic materials (Meat, fruit or vegetables) and the hilt will be stained by the hands. This is also a natural process. If the sword is taken well care of these marks will only increase the character and personality of the item. It will even take on that special aura you see in originals when enough time and wear has been invested in it.

About the "sharp" pommel:
We shall note the this is made from the example of an original sword. If it causes us some concernin some aspects of iits use we must ask ourselves if we use it the way it was originally supposed to. If we perceive the pommel as too sharp to be gripped comfortably, then perhaps this sword was not meant to be used in that way? Perhaps the user of the original kept his hands on the grip or only partly overlapping the pommel?
I suspect so, but I cannot say that I know for certain. We can only form an idea by trying and keeping an open mind. If our techniques forces us to use exotic or strange methods we might be better of try another approach.
It might well be that you were supposed to wear leather gloves when wielding the sword, but I am not sure tha was the case. Keep trying and see what works best. Perhaps the sword will show another level of performance if you keep your hands closer together?
I do not know, but I would be interested to know Happy

About the weight and heft:
Lance, you are perfectly right in your observation that a sword that is heavy for one individual will be percieved as heavy for another. Mere weight will also tell rather little about the actual feel and heft of a sword when put to use.
The Brescia Spadona is a substantial sword, but in no way a very heavy one compared to other originals. I would say it is a stout medium weight among medium-to-large long swords.
When I measured this sword I was careful to take many measurements of width and thickness along the blade and to note the placing of nodes and balance point. I could not note its weight as I unfortunately did not have access to a set of scales. With the data of dimensions I did accuire I feel very confident that the reconstruction follows the original extremely closely both in absolute weight and more importanlty in dynamic properties. The originals has a number of irregularities: the edges are well worn, snaking in curves towards a blunted point. The blade is also showing some irregularities in the tapering reslting from some flaws in the forging or grinding. These are in the scale of 0.2 mm (this is very cear when you draw a graph of the documented widths and thicknesses). When makeing a reconstruction you have to reestablish the "normal" blade from which the irregularities spring. There is for example a small dip in thickness right at the hilt. It is no more than what could be caused by the grinder sneezing while working at his wheel. These kind of irregularities are impossible to reproduce. Instead a blade is developed, that follows the shape of the original when irregularities are straighetened, only to show its onw unique and minute irregularities in its making as the result of the human hand invlved in its making. No blade is mathematically perfect. As they are ground by hand they will always show the mark of a human touch. Small things, but they need to be understood in their context.

There has been some unfortunate misunderstandings regarding the proper weight of the Brescia Spadona. For some reason the idea has kept reoccuring that the reconstruction is far from correct with a significant difference in weight between the original and the Albion version.
This is strange I have supplied the information the critique is based on. My estimate of the weight was from *handling the sword only*. I did not have a set of scales. I did therefore not note the exact weight. This was of course unfortunate, but not disqualiffying the rest of the documentation. Having the full set of data together with notes nodes and balance point makes it possible to reproduce the sword faithfully in a way that it will compare to the original not only in physical appearance, but also in handling characteristics. This is what is important. I would be surpriced if the Brescia Spadonas produced by Albion vary more than 15 grams max between different swords. An Albion Spadona *will* be a tad heavier though, but only so much that the restored material weighs. In this case it is not very much, perhaps some 30 grams but probably less. I would advice you not to build elaborate mathematics on these numbers as they are only rough estimates to give you an ides of scale of variation.

The art, if you like, of documenting and reconstructing is not just in recording numbers and reproducing them with high precision, but also in reading what is between the dots and reestablishing lost shapes. You may compare it to playing a musical composition that has been preserved only partly: some sheets of notes are missing. You need to use your sense and knowledhge of style and period to reconstruct the complete composition. The more original music that is missing the less exact the reconstruction can claim to be. In the case of the Brescia Spadona, very little original music is missing. There are only a few smudges and some cases of unclear handwriting. The task is analyzing the piece to see its undelying logic to build an understanding and then to "play" it again to make it into enjoyable music.
What I am trying to convey is this: it takes more than mere measurements to make a good reconstruction: you need to know the period and other comparable specimen. You need to see beyond mere physical properties and grasp the logic behind the shapes and proportions. It is all great fun and rewarding but takes a lot of time and dedication. This is what the original research is all about: learning the material.

Lance, I must thank you that you have put such dedication into testing this sword and showing us the results. I have followed your results and reactions with interest.
Please continue!
Some thoughts: I do not think this sword was ever intended to be used single handed in any significnt way. Perhaps for the odd cut once in a while, but not for extended periods. I also expect this sword was not used with the left hand completely grasping the pommel.
Those are just my impressions though. You might find it otherwise.
Thank you for a very interesting review Happy

Best
Peter
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
...Thank you for a very interesting review Happy

Best
Peter


And thank you, Peter, for another enlightening view of the documentation and reproduction process.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Peter for the inputs. I've been wondering lately about the hardness on the fittings. How much do you think the difference is between a investment casted mild steel piece and a forged iron piece?

The dropping accidents I've had led me to think of the Gustav rapier that was tossed out of a window during a fire.

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance Chan wrote:
The dropping accidents I've had led me to think of the Gustav rapier that was tossed out of a window during a fire.


Lance you seem to have a problem with turning your swords into projectiles! Laughing Out Loud

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sigh, you just won't stop teasing me until I cry? Cry Eek! Worried I didn't drop the sword intentionally, man. WTF?!

*sob sob*

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Lance Chan wrote:
The dropping accidents I've had led me to think of the Gustav rapier that was tossed out of a window during a fire.


Lance you seem to have a problem with turning your swords into projectiles! Laughing Out Loud

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Sigh, you just won't stop teasing me until I cry? Cry Eek! Worried I didn't drop the sword intentionally, man. WTF?!

*sob sob*


It's all good natured Lance.

But just the same, are you crying yet? Wink

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 8:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot;

The first scratch or ding is tragic, the next 99 are charactor Razz Big Grin

But still, if it were mine I would not drop it on purpose to GIVE it charactor. ( Not that I think you wanted to drop it, only that I would prefer " charactor " to happen later rather than sooner Sad )

That and high shipping charges to Albion and back for repairs make repeating the proscess unattractive.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
...How much do you think the difference is between a investment casted mild steel piece and a forged iron piece?

The dropping accidents I've had led me to think of the Gustav rapier that was tossed out of a window during a fire.


Hey Lance,

Difficult to say actually, as it would depend at what temperature the iron was finished forged at among many other factors. If you do fine finishing forging at almost cold it will make the iron a bit harder.
If you file and polish the iron you will expose some of its softer nature, while if you leave it black from the forge it will have a skin that is a little harder. Hilt components are of course always surface finished by filing/grinding, but to varying degree: some are forged so fine than almost no filing is neccessary, while other are subjected to more stock removal.
Iron will differ from iron in a medieval situation. Some is very soft, other is more steely.

I cannot give a definite answer actually. There might be a difference in that the forged iron could be harder, but perhaps not in any given situation. Medieval iron will typically have incusions and sometimes also have higher trace elements of sulphur. That will affect tensile strength in a negative way.

The Gustav Wasa rapier, yes: that has a few dings! It has been restored, but you can still clearly see the dents from hitting ground. The pommel is deformed in a way that makes me think it was made from fairly soft iron.
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Leonardo Daneluz




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mi first post here...

In my experience iron fittings (specially guards) are better in soft iron. If the guard is hard it would loose easier. Also the kind of guard in the Brescia (thick near the hole and much thinner towards the ends) is an efficient way to adress the vibration problem.
Modern forged iron (say sae 1010) would be very very soft compared to any kind of heat treated steel. Hand forged medium carbon steel (say sae1045) may have a hardness of 20- 30 Rc. In both cases it is soft and will be damaged very similarly (there is a huge diference in strenght between 30 rc and the numbers we see in blades, just it doesnt appear like a linear function).
A sword with a full hardened guard and pommel would be very unpleasant for hitting anything. I have made only one in that way and it was the last one, many years ago. It was awful.
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the input Leonardo, and welcome!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Leonardo Daneluz




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I forgot a question for mr Chan

When you refer to the pivot point...From where did you measure it?
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By measuring pivot point, I let the sword tip point upward and hold the sword by putting 2 fingers on the guard, then try to balance it. The sword, by nature, would wiggle to left and right as if you're trying to balance a stick on your hand, and there'll be a point on the blade where it act as the pivot point. On the Brescia Spadona case, it was at the very tip of it, which is an excellent thing.

BTW, since you're a smith and familiar with material, you may have some insights into this. Were mild steel made all the same? I found that when I put my Brescia back to the "sword barrack", even a very slight touch between the mild steel guards of my tinker sword and the Albion one would cause small dents on the Albion's guard, while the tinker's guard was totally unscratched. Both guards were made of mild steel as far as I know. The Albion one was cast, while the tinker's one was not. That was the reason why I asked PJ about the different hardness of casted mild steel item and forged iron item. It seemed that the hardness difference between the two mild steel sword guard was huge. I also wonder that in this case, would the hardness of the Albion guard be able to survive a hit from the hardened edge of the opponent sword as well.

For example, my tinker sword actually had the same accident on the same spot the Brescia experienced, (some time on Jan. 2005) and the damage received was relatively slight. Since the pommel was stainless steel it would not be fair to compare with the BS pommel, but the guard of the tinker sword was mild steel as well and here are some photos of the damage:



One thing to notice is that although the tinker sword is 1 lbs lighter than Brescia, it was knocked down by someone along with an atrim short sword on top of it so it received an impact with force more than its own weight would do.

(and yes, I stopped putting swords that way after these 2 accidents. Now they're all standing on my sleeping mat side that when they drop, they'll drop right on my head so they won't be dent and damage... you just won't see me around anymore. :P )

Leonardo Daneluz wrote:
I forgot a question for mr Chan

When you refer to the pivot point...From where did you measure it?

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sword barrack:


The Brescia's guard after being put back in place and touched with tinker's guard:


I agree they were very minor dents but given the circumstances where it received it (very minor impact... can't tell if it counts as impact at all actually. You can imagine how little force was put in use when just putting the sword back in place with care), and the fact that the tinker mild steel guard was unscratched at all, I couldn't get it out of my mind for a long while.

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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
By measuring pivot point, I let the sword tip point upward and hold the sword by putting 2 fingers on the guard, then try to balance it. The sword, by nature, would wiggle to left and right as if you're trying to balance a stick on your hand, and there'll be a point on the blade where it act as the pivot point. On the Brescia Spadona case, it was at the very tip of it, which is an excellent thing.

BTW, since you're a smith and familiar with material, you may have some insights into this. Were mild steel made all the same? I found that when I put my Brescia back to the "sword barrack", even a very slight touch between the mild steel guards of my tinker sword and the Albion one would cause small dents on the Albion's guard, while the tinker's guard was totally unscratched. Both guards were made of mild steel as far as I know. The Albion one was cast, while the tinker's one was not. That was the reason why I asked PJ about the different hardness of casted mild steel item and forged iron item. It seemed that the hardness difference between the two mild steel sword guard was huge. I also wonder that in this case, would the hardness of the Albion guard be able to survive a hit from the hardened edge of the opponent sword as well.

For example, my tinker sword actually had the same accident on the same spot the Brescia experienced, (some time on Jan. 2005) and the damage received was relatively slight. Since the pommel was stainless steel it would not be fair to compare with the BS pommel, but the guard of the tinker sword was mild steel as well and here are some photos of the damage:



One thing to notice is that although the tinker sword is 1 lbs lighter than Brescia, it was knocked down by someone along with an atrim short sword on top of it so it received an impact with force more than its own weight would do.

(and yes, I stopped putting swords that way after these 2 accidents. Now they're all standing on my sleeping mat side that when they drop, they'll drop right on my head so they won't be dent and damage... you just won't see me around anymore. :P )

Leonardo Daneluz wrote:
I forgot a question for mr Chan

When you refer to the pivot point...From where did you measure it?


Hi Lance

Can't help you much on this, but the stainless used on the pommel on that time, is 303 stainless, which is about the same hardness as the 1018 used on the guards of both AT's and Tinkers at that time........

swords are fun
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